In a lot of ways we’re becoming just like the mainstream media with the tendency to treat newscycles like chumlines, with everyone heading in the same direction all the time. On DailyKOS I posted in a thread about a Lieberman supporter hollaring at Lamont somewhere…the back and forth can be seen in its entirety here, but the one part I want to share here pretty much sums up what’s on my mind:
Adding to the pixels is something I thought about, but this has been bugging me for a while now. I’m a believer in Howard Dean’s strategy, so it bothers me at times to see so much attention going to one race – AND – the fact that notorious blogs have a tendency to collectively beat something to death while allowing other issues to fly under the radar.
There are times when I question what our values are. Whether it’s truly “newsworthy” that a Lieberman supporter acted a fool in public – compared with what could have been posted in its place, like the words of a soldier home from Iraq without legs, or what a family member of a Sago victim thought about the news that oxygen tanks are still not in place – or perhaps what that same person thinks about industry reps being put in charge of government regulation.
The large column on this front page is read by a lot more people than the diaries, and with that in mind, I think that strategically it would be prudent to highlight our collective values and how they are not being represented by those in charge today. Get more into ideology and concepts like “the little guy getting stepped on” and resist the urge to milk something all political junkies have already made up their minds about.
These writers are doing us a favor with their dedication to this community, but the overall health of this phenomenon requires that we not only remain aware of what’s going on, but to more importantly start coming together on what specifically happens the day after we take over.
When victory is achieved, what happens then? I suppose that pointing out the idiocy of our opponents will continue to be entertaining, but these people we send to Washington will have an opportunity to change things for the better…it’s never guaranteed that they actually will, or that if they even do whether their deeds will coorelate with concepts that actually matter to Americans.
Right now we’re winning in certain places more because of the incompetence of Republicans than the strength of our ideas. In order to make sure what we gain can be retained in the long run, it’s going to take a LOT more than identifying what we’re against and going after it.
We’re losing crucial time right now by beating our chests and celebrating the fact that we’re “players”, begining to taste our relevence and power, and ignoring the larger matter of what happens after the votes are counted.
These stories aren’t that important in the long run…articulating and KNOWING what we believe in is a much larger matter. Discussion in a thread on this level is worth a lot more than 200 comments on a story about some jerk yelling at a Democrat we like. That’s all I’m saying.
Could you cite a specific example of what you are talking about?
And, no, Sago and Iraq soldiers sans legs don’t count, because you used them only as rhetorical props.
Eight paragraphs of generalities with no specific examples leave the reader wishing he had spent his time doing something else.
OK – how about whenever a morsel of information supposedly ‘came out’ on the Plame story…the blogs would start chirping and then truthout jumped the shark so badly but wouldn’t just admit the mistake.
It exposed our amateurish nature in terms of journalism…an occupation that people go to college to learn for a reason. Silence all of a sudden once Rove is off the hook, and then consider how much babble out there was a waste of time, speculation turned into news by neo-news sources…
The Vegas KOS thing – why did Joe Wilson get Beatles like attention? Probably because so many there had cut their teeth on that STORY – when in reality, Wilson is small potatoes. Credibility and being right aren’t the two pillars of success or failure in Washington DC or politics in general even.
The blogsphere doesn’t yet understand that, or the fact that news is news, and by simply emphasizing or repackaging news, you’re not really adding anything to it, but most likely taking something away. To compound the problem, you’ve got thousands of schmucks out there who are looking to get famous, and eventually the thing crumbles.
Like if Lieberman somehow (I pray it doesn’t happen) remains a senator past this election in November…KOS has egg on its face, and looks foolish for pumping it so ridiculously hard this past week.
I have an interest in KOS remaining relevant for the long haul, but if the group turns into a cult with the story du-jour too often, eventually they’re going to jump the shark just like truthout.
And unlike the NYTimes, a blog that hasn’t yet passed it’s 10th year isn’t going to be able to rely on much over time. They’ve got the torches and pitchforks out over there and it’s not healthy.
A big tent is the key to Democratic power retained over time. Sometimes at KOS I get the impression that it’d be fine to just stand in a circle and open fire.
I voice dissent and get comments like ‘troll’ or ‘this should be deleted’ – – – not good
Getting too big for one’s britches…too interested in things other than the health of the republic
to the author of this diary…i agree and i came here from daily kos
i got banned from that crowd because i said i believed in god
dont pay attention to them…they are elitists and if the the democratic party loses the election it will be because of people just like them.
Elitist is a good way of describing some of them. They go after it like sharks sometimes, to their own detriment. By reading this past week, you’d think that once Lamont won the primary, the ice caps would stop melting.
well i get the feeling that when i read the comments on the diaries that i have just entered a california style college dorm, that if you not exactly like us you like “soooooo” out…they are worse than high schoolers if you ask me…now to the point of your original diary…I warned some them that Lamont wont be much different…if we want a real change we need a new party
That’s not viable in the short term though, and the country needs a lot of the current administration’s policies to end ASAP.
I don’t want to see a site like KOS turn into the Dem’s version of the evangelical-right.
they all ready are the dems version of the evangelical right….i got banned 6 months ago because i said believed in god and a creator and that our founding fathers believed in that also…now let me explain im not a christain, but i simply dont believe in evolution either. I GOT BANNED or whatever they happen to call it.
I got the elitist treatment, and some of them were so nasty i blew my lid…then i got the recipe treatment like you did…you know take 1 cup of this and 2 cups of that mix it up and gag mofo…that treatment.
they dont give a rats ass about howard dean or anyone else for that matter…they are a bunch of self absorbed nuts….
for instance i dont particularly care for hilary clinton becomming president…thats my opinion…but they go all the way buddy,…the hate that they spew just because she supported the iraq war…i dont support the iraq war, but the hate that they spew…same for bill clinton..they are harder on him than the right wing…i happen to think he was one of our greatest presidents…but you cant tell them that..if bill clinton wastn/isnt able to wave a magic wand and make “everything” better they hate him for that…
i hope that those bozos dont get control of the democratic party because if they do we are all in trouble….
they are already the dems version of the evangelical right believe me
and here is another thing…but not releated to Kos…
“”As perception grows of worsening conditions in Iraq, it may be that Americans are just hoping for more of a solid basis for being in Iraq to begin with,” said the Harris Poll’s David Krane.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060806/ap_on_re_us/iraq_believing_wmd
you know this might not be pc to say….but im sick and tired of excuses being made for the retards in this country
Amen Michaud.
I read a couple of political blogs. Actually, I only visit DI here and a blogger by the name of Dusty. I don’t comment as often as I’d like on the political stuff because what can I say? There are a boatload of idiots in this country who have warped mindsets that they refuse to change. You can only say it so much before despair lands you in the looney bin.
I really don’t like arguing with conservatives in real life because what’s the use? They might not be as educated on the facts as me, but they still have the same equal voice. They can think all 12-hour old embryoes should get the right to vote. Absurd, but supposedly just as relevant as my position on the subject. Billy Bob Redneck’s vote equals mine. Lord help us.
We had a guy named Frodo here for a while who was pushing the “we found WMDs” argument months before the Santorum farce. He poped back in a few weeks back, but has stayed away since then. This is a troubling turn of events – since we’re trading in reality for comfort at the expense of young men and women who are still being killed and maimed there every day.
On the KOS people…I do sense that there’s a lot of opportunism going on, a serious misallocation of effort towards personal gain above anything else.
I think Hillary is full of shit, and Iraq is just one instance. I’d vote for Chuck Hagel before I’d vote for Hillary.
RM – I’d be interested in posting a piece written by you describing your spiritual beliefs, your take on evolution, etc. It sounds very interesting, but something that really deserves its own thread rather than exist only in the comments.
The site is quiet today, but we’ve got a handfull of great people who post here…hope you stick around! I’ve written quite a bit on religion here, some of them are under ‘featured articles’ to the left.
oh yes i will stick around definitly and most wholeheartedly…i like this blog its simple. i like simple things
yes i would be very interested in writting a piece on what i believe in the spiritual realm… and if you would be so gracious, if i could cross post it at my old/new blog tht i havent touched in over a year
you folks can visit my blog too a blogspot… and as a matter of fact Al coming to your blog imspired me to go back and take a look at my old blog
thank you and i will write a piece and you can feel free to email me
now to S. R. i say amen back!!!!!….people should at least have to take a reading test to vote or a civics quiz like who are the 1st and 16th presidents of the united states? or how many electoral votes does you state have? or what do the bill of rights mean?
something to keep these redneck bush loving morons from voting
oops my blog link is http://nonpchere.blogspot.com/
If you keep the updates coming, I’ll bookmark your blog RM.
Had a quick argument last night with my conservative uncle and with my pseudo brother-in-law siding with me. Unc stated that he was “socially moderate and fiscally conservative.” Then he said that abortion should be OK in cases of rape and incest.
?
Isn’t this the hard-line conservative view? I said that if the baby can’t live outside the mother, then how can it be a full-fledged human being and he shut up.
My last comment is in moderation for some reason.
We’re already in big trouble. The question is “how much worse can it get?” I’m not sure that there is a hell of a lot an American president can really do when they take the reigns in ’08.
I’m not sure about that one. I understand the reasoning, but who gets to decide the criteria? What’s the difference between a democracy and “mob rules”?
What’s the argument against evolution? Watch polar bears over the next thousand years and you’ll witness evolution (and if you figure out how to live for a thousand years let me know).
As for religion… hmmm…
My wife asked me what I would tell me 3 year old girl about death when she gets around to asking.
I personally believe that we are simply energy, and that when we expire we transform from one form to another. Not complicated, but not likely to make sense to a 3 year old either. I’m leaning very strongly towards telling her that everyone goes to heaven after they die where they eat ice cream cones, and play with friends all day long. What’s the harm in this? I’m not anxious to have the death conversation, but I just can’t see myself leaving my kiddo with the idea that there’s nothing in the great beyond (that I absolutely know about). I’m beginning to see the appeal of religion (at least as it pertains to explaining death to my kid). It has a certain fairy tale quality that is easy to sell… happily ever after.
Heh – this is why I wanted to give this topic its own thread! I’m dying to discuss something like this.
I’m analytical by nature, it’s just the way I am, so when the question of ‘what happens after we die’ comes up, I can’t provide an answer without feeling like a jerk.
When they’re young we tell them that a man comes down the chimney and leaves gifts under a tree that we’re going to chuck out w/ the trash in the beginning of January. I’d assume that the tradition was started for a reason, and for that, CM, I think you’re on the right track, whether you believe it or not. They’re having enough trouble taking a piss without it getting all over their pants at this point, no need to lay that on them…
Sam keeps going up to the bookshelf and bringing back this book on reincarnation…we put it in five different places and he continues to pull it out and bring it over…whereas normally he’ll pull out 10 books and drop them at his feet then move on. That said, I’m not sold on anything since I’ve got zero evidence of it.
Now that’s bizarre. Is he talking at all yet? Will be interesting to hear what he has to say.
I know exactly what you mean. I guess everyone is different, and perhaps I’ll change too as I get closer to my retirement age. For now I’m OK with the idea that we just die, with no afterlife connection to the living.
But then again, I did once see something that I think might have been a ghost… or a very strange disturbance in the space/time continuum. Hard to tell with no real frame of reference.
Al, that Sam and reincarnation book thing is kind of wild.
You think that’s wild…I had a post a while back that I shelved for some reason…the title of it was ‘Ghosts, Sam and Trot Nixon’ – what happened (brief version) was Max woke up crying and the Sox were in a heated contest, I was into the booze and excited, heather wasn’t going up there, so I fucked up and brought the guy downstairs. Everything’s cool for about 10 minutes, he’s having a bottle and we’re watching the top of the lineup (at the time…Youkilis, Loretta, Ortiz, Manny, Trot) the sox are down by 2 and they get one run in with runners on second and third…the energy is high,
Suddenly I hear Sam crying upstairs and feel bad right away, but Trot is up and I need to see what’s going to happen – the other team goes to the bullpen, 2 outs, 2nd & 3rd, down by one – Max stops drinking his bottle and just sits back (BREAK)
Sam sucks his left thumb and twirls his hair with his right hand…Max has NEVER sucked his thumb even once, BESIDES…
(BACK TO THE GAME)
Sam is crying, Max is chilling, Trot is up, and suddenly Max pops his left thumb in his mouth and starts twirling his hair with his right hand. Trot pulls a single between 1st and 2nd and both runs come in, Sam stops crying, Max stops sucking his thumb…I bring Max back upstairs and lay him down, not a peep for the rest of the night.
Now he’s bringing the book over and pointing at a picture of something that I interpret as the steering wheel on a boat, heather thinks it’s the sun, but there’s a sun on the cover as well…in the middle of this design is a yin/yang symbol. I ask him questions and he reacts, but I don’t overdo it.
Crazy…
CM – I’ve seen some weird shit also – some of my wildest Jesus Camp stories, I’ve resisted laying them on the public for fear of being considered more of a threat to society than is the case already. That’s why I was eager to get our new friend’s take on it…the opportunity to read about others’ experiences and comment tends to bring back memories and get me thinking about it all.
The Santa Claus story (to me) coorelates with the heaven/hell concept…naughty/nice, but who knows. I tend to sit in amazement about the fact that thousands of years of people came before us, and most of them dealt with shit that would break most of our modern asses. So these stories are created for reasons, and the reasons are what I like to think about most often.
Can’t wait until Ali G busts out an episode called ‘Wizdom’
Long – but crucial to what I’m getting at when it comes to KOS…I think what’s REALLY bothering me is that there are resources on hand that are only being used to repeat the same thing over and over and over again, when instead we could be…well, here it is (discussion w/ a user named Spit):
I try not to leave threads up in the air. If you post, I will indeed read and respond.
by wwwdeadissuecom on Sun Aug 06, 2006 at 10:18:18 PM PDT
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Sorry it’s (0 / 0)
taken me so long to get back to this; I’m having a weird early-week, and my focus is always a little flakey anyway.
On this:
I agree with you on a level, but I also think that to a very large degree, any site that reaches this kind of size and attention is going to wind up being pulled into the same vortex with the MSM. I don’t think they exist independent of each other, but rather are sort of orbiting each other all the time — the blogs used to simply orbit the other media (as additional commentary, say, on news events and opinions first released through cable news or newspapers), while now it seems like they’re both consistently referencing each other. At its best, that means some random person with a blog (or even just commenting on one) can actually have a big influence on national coverage. More often, it means that it’s one big circle jerk.
A blog this size has a chance of really influencing the more dominant conversation outside of blogworld, and I think that’s a lot of what markos has been trying to do. The problem with it, which you’re right to point out, is that if we don’t do that carefully, we wind up simply being another pillar for the mainstream — another source of conventional wisdom, and one that ignores a whole lot of issues that aren’t sexy enough or have a wide enough audience. I’m not honestly sure that’s avoidable; I certainly don’t think this particular blog has avoided it well, to be honest.
What happens after (hopefully) a democratic majority is that we focus on the presidential race. What happens if we win that, too, is entirely up in the air, to be honest. The activism here, the whole focus of the place, has been heavily on the political end and not the important questions of policy or philosophy — that’s what kos chose to do with it after the 2004 election. On a level, it’s useful — because if you’re going to have a NOISE MACHINE, this one is very effective. On another level, it’s sad, because this place could be so much more, and also because there are frequently underlying philosophical inconsistencies here — we’re progressives, but we’re for a big tent, unless it’s about the war, except when it’s in a red state, unless… meanwhile, except for getting democrats elected (which is a fine goal, but a pretty… uh… uninspiring one, and will be moreso once we’ve dampened the current administration’s power a bit), what exactly do we work for here?
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This is a great point, and an important one:
I agree with you on every. single. piece. of this. But I think that we’re still in a place of evolution with blogs, and while I certainly have my share of complaints about how this one has developed, I also think that for the goals markos has chosen, it’s a very effective, if limited, tool — if it were mine, it would look very different. I would love to see blogs focus more locally to work everything into a bigger picture, I would love to see more focus on issues that are important to blacks in particular (this is a very, very white community, bear in mind), so forth — hell, the economy hardly ever comes up on the front page.
The diaries help a lot in that regard, but you’re also right to point out that the front page is the biggest megaphone, and I often wish it was used more wisely, especially now that we’ve got influence over the larger story in the mainstream press. There are a lot of pieces of the political landscape that go untouched because they’re too complicated or viewed (unfairly IMO, it’s always a matter of connecting the dots) as “too narrow”.
At the same time, it’s the best we’ve got right now — and it’s a hell of a lot better. This medium, ignoring some internet history a bit, is really only a few years old.
Think I wandered a bit and wound up way too long; I hope that even stayed half on topic. Like I said, my focus is not too good these days. 🙂
above by Spit on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 08:23:44 PM PDT
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I think you did fine (0 / 0)
Don’t be too hard on yourself(!), for someone who’s tired and perhaps overworked, that was very cogent and readable.
I think the KOS site should take on a business mentality, assigning topics to people, having others fact-check and yet another format and edit the prose. All these people who write here, many of them are dying for the chance to make a difference but clearly are in need of direction.
Markos got here with a great idea and a LOT of hard work and dedication, but the “be careful of what you wish for” mantra is here and now in my opinion. Whereas the front page on most days, from top to bottom, would be great in terms of quotes and an array of topics – here we have an instance where Markos is actually ON the story in person, and the site suffers from it. Not saying it’s missing his leadership, but…well, it’s missing “leadership” period.
The noise machine function is certainly in place and to that end, KOS is phenomenal – BUT – when resources aren’t allocated correctly, the noise machine is all you end up with. I don’t know if anyone involved with KOS is getting paid, but even without paychecks I’d imagine that as a community we’d be able to put together material as heady as your average think-tank.
Crime rates – on this one issue I’m often brought to sadness, mostly because I don’t have the time personally to give it its due, and even if I did, my blog won’t end up all over the net. What you do here is get 10 volunteers from the site who’d like to be credited on the final product. Cut the country into 10 parts with each getting a section to research with a deadline of a week – numbers are pulled based on a spreadsheet KOS sends to each, and their jobs are to fill out the empty spots and provide backup for where they found it (preferably an http:// link) – – – KOS could pay for accounts for each, the most efficient publication and research search engines available (ala most universities and libraries)…
The data is verified by a seperate team with time for questions back to the researchers, fill in the blanks, etc.
During all of this, in the background, you’ve got a writer or two working on the piece – another on the graphics to coincide…
Perfect this procedure over time so that when it comes time to evaluate an issue, it comes together in a minimum of working days. These reports become part of the site, and instead of jumping on the ‘sexy story’ bandwagon and cranking up the noise machine (only), start pumping out “products” that can stand up next to that of a prestigious think tank or government agency at a fraction of the cost.
That’s what we could become best at, and at the same time represent the blogsphere’s evolution UPWARDS…to where the users and the politicians we’re now attracting become better educated and AWARE of those among us who are suffering, disenfranchised, living large, etc…
Our values and our ideology have to be able to stand tall and equal more than just blabber, which is what I’d call the condition of the site in recent weeks.
Markos needs to organize and appreciate the fact that since he’s attracted such a following, to use it only in such simple ways is a waste of everybody’s time. Many of the diary writers are opportunistic and looking to promote themselves, but plenty of us are also looking to roll up our sleeves, yet cannot quit our jobs and go knocking on doors for this or that candidate.
It’s not just about the political goal of winning elections, but using reality and facts to shape an ideology that the majority of us can agree on. Because for me, the suffering of a soldier or a 13 year old kid in a city learning from a 15 year old textbook…that resonates within me the urge to lash out a hell of a lot more than what we’re lashing out at normally around here, which is…
politicians being what they are, full of shit for the sake of their own survival and their own relevance over time….and in the case of Republicans, their own personal wealth.
In the future, a dedicated blogger filling up the front page in a stream of consciousness sort of way isn’t going to cut it.
by wwwdeadissuecom on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 09:01:23 PM PDT
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I think you did fine by wwwdeadissuecom, Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 09:01:23 PM PDT (0 / 0)
to expand on this concept (0 / 0)
The diaries are usefull to a point, but the human brain wasn’t meant to store these instances of bullshit happening here and there for the sake of posterity. I read them quite often, but what happens 10 days afterwards? I forget 80% of what I’ve read, and the thought hits me that it’s for entertainment purposes that I come to KOS…to see what the scumbags have pulled lately (GOP)
That part of it is great, but at some point we have to compile these things and produce something that everyone can feel they’ve contributed to…and not just an election victory, but a document, a product that points out what’s wrong and says how to fix it.
I personally feel that the crooks are on both sides of the aisle, but also that local politics can’t compete with the power of the pursestrings being held above them…and while students receive piss poor support and equipment needed to get an education, subsidies are creating undeserved wealth all around us.
The GOP got millions to resent a penny going into the pocket of a ‘welfare mom’, yet when we expose millions going into the pockets of businesses producing products that nobody needs, it gets buried within a few days and forgotten. The only way to turn this part of it around is to get organized and busy on the tedious work that’s needed.
whew…soapbox…you can tell I don’t want to get back to this project for school…
by wwwdeadissuecom on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 12:17:59 AM
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to expand on this concept (0 / 0)
The diaries are usefull to a point, but the human brain wasn’t meant to store these instances of bullshit happening here and there for the sake of posterity. I read them quite often, but what happens 10 days afterwards? I forget 80% of what I’ve read, and the thought hits me that it’s for entertainment purposes that I come to KOS…to see what the scumbags have pulled lately (GOP)
That part of it is great, but at some point we have to compile these things and produce something that everyone can feel they’ve contributed to…and not just an election victory, but a document, a product that points out what’s wrong and says how to fix it.
I personally feel that the crooks are on both sides of the aisle, but also that local politics can’t compete with the power of the pursestrings being held above them…and while students receive piss poor support and equipment needed to get an education, subsidies are creating undeserved wealth all around us.
The GOP got millions to resent a penny going into the pocket of a ‘welfare mom’, yet when we expose millions going into the pockets of businesses producing products that nobody needs, it gets buried within a few days and forgotten. The only way to turn this part of it around is to get organized and busy on the tedious work that’s needed.
whew…soapbox…you can tell I don’t want to get back to this project for school…
by wwwdeadissuecom on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 09:08:56 PM PDT
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Today Sam and Max dump the top shelf of books, I take them out for a walk around 4PM w/ the pile still there, and when we get back, out of the entire pile, Sam picks up Sylvia Brown and hands it to me.
What the hell am I supposed to do here?