Brownback and Inhofe ran point for the opposition, yet during all of the debate on the Senate floor they failed to convince on the science. This is because they refered to science hardly at all in terms of citing expert opinions that backed their stance. Several times they read long stories of people whose lives were saved by adult stem cell therapies already in practice today, and by the time a vote took place, ‘scientifically’ their only position was that adult stem cells provided great hope for the future of medicine. That point wasn’t argued against by those in favor of the bill, nor was it going to be effected by the outcome of the vote in any way. When speaking to the specific question posed by the bill, they did not have ‘science’ to feature in opposition, but theology instead.
The clash of disciplines here is more of a perfect fit than we like to admit as a society, especially the athiests among us. Truth being, without theology we wouldn’t be able to make a distinction between killing a human being or a spider. Science tells me that inserting a live lobster into a pot of boiling water is not cruel because the lobster’s nervous system is too simple to feel pain, but killing the lobster and eating it with a clear conscious is the work of theology. What science cannot reach has always been the property of theology, which the human brain then relies on to establish boundaries seperating good from bad in the decisions we are forced to make in order to live.
Early on the human being understood that other living things would have to be hunted and killed for food. That historic aspect of our nature remains today, without the burden of theological interpretation saying man should go hungry, save a segment of society choosing to forego meat as a personal choice. We unashamed meateaters regularly misunderstand the theological force at play, causing perhaps an athiest to become a vegitarian, at which time we instinctively replace the idea of theology with philosophy and move on.
I’m not crazy, you’re crazy. A theological feast that in old’n days would have equaled a generation of ignorance, today will instead come up for a vote every year until it becomes a reality. People forget that abortion became legal under the same type of public dynamic, and like most things legislators throw around like a hot coal for decades already, a judge somewhere gets the ball rolling. As the constitution can be interpreted many ways, but undeniably in the sort of way that indicates the government isn’t on the side of law when it tells you shit other than “pay me money right now, this much” or “your piece of paper is expired and it costs money for a new one”…these inconveniences pay for the school, the sewage, trash pickup, the Big Dig, Iraq, doctors for wounded soldiers, police, streetlights, jails for all of America’s “failed experiments”.
That’s my theology concerning government in a nutshell. Understand that people are going to get over on the system and blow money, but don’t let that group of assholes distract you from seeing the big picture. Don’t get in the way of progress when history deems it necessary that you move aside already. We place our theology above our loyalty to country, for the sake of one, although it’s confusing which, as the principle in placing scientific knowledge below theologic thought from a decade ago is bound for disaster.
When societies buck reality that much, over time it becomes accepted and eventually some jerk kills you for wearing shorts outside of the house.
I have a feeling that in the next few years you will see some scientific sleight of hand where scientist claim to either extract the stem cells without destroying the embryo, never mind that the embryo will never be implanted and will be destroyed as medical waste; or perhap some smart scientist will come up with a way to create stem cells without producing a viable embryo at any time, sure it will involve an egg and sperm but it would be easy to define away the embryo part of the equation. If you believe the ends justifies the means I guess a little white lie is not a problem.
The other factor that no one wants to talk about is the cost, both of the initial research and who is going to pay for what promises to be some very expensive treatments. I wonder if part of the reason that Bush vetoed the stem cell bill is that made his friends in the insurnace industry very happy.
The Bush position makes no sense. Embryonic stem cell research will be conducted by both foreign nations and private corporations. By not getting involved the administration has lost all ability to affect how the research is conducted.
And what’s worse is that when gains are made these gains may be proprietary and not available to the masses. Exactly what RT was alluding to regarding only the rich benefiting. If the government funded this research the benefits would more likely be available for all. Leave it to the free market and only the rich will be able to afford the benefits.
Then again, perhaps that is exactly what the administration is counting on.
I think this is just a wedge issue latched onto for the sake of November. Got to get the fire and brimstone folk out to the polls.
It was a politically savvy veto. The base is happy with Bush right now, and it enables repubs in moderate states to distance themselves from Bush by voting for stem cell research and it may be keeping a certain portion of his corporate donors happy. The only losers here are the people that may have benifitted from the research and who cares about them anyway.
The more I watch politics the more I appreciate Karl Rove, not only does he manage to screw over millions of people but he has a knack for convincing them that they are enjoying it.
Notice the signing was closed to reporters and photographers…this is a low point historically for Bush and he knows it, but paramount to ensuring this low point isn’t backed by several others, GOP retention of congress is paramount.
We’ll see how it plays out – whether Republicans can distance themselves from the bad name Bush has given their party.
CM brought up a good point that the US is losing its competitive advantage to countries that are less faith based and will pick up the research and run with it. The US is becoming less and less relevant to the rest of the world. The US is no longer an economic leader and is rapidly losing status as a super power.
So he finally uses the veto…
Karl and others make a good point. Countries outside of the US will research and progress in this area. As advances are found, the US will end up taking advantage of them. C’mon, if France uses stem cell research to cure Parkinson’s, do you doubt that even the loudest bible thumper would use this to cure Gramps, or him/herself. Sanctimony and piety only go so far. About as far as hypocrisy.
Whatever the case, Dubya just landed a juicy wet kiss on the collective asses of his base.
I agree with Al on this..its just another ploy to get the religious wingnuts out to vote.
Juicy wet kiss or not, this is the kind of thing kids learn about in history class. The domestic policy of a failed war President carries with it the chance for salvation, and in using his first veto (historical statistic of enormous relevance) in this way he’s most likely sealed his own fate.
Twenty, fifty years from now, if something like Parkinson’s disease is cured by an American scientist, history would have been obligated to toss him an “atta-boy”.
Instead, he’ll be remembered for this veto.
especially if its a French scientist that develops the cure thru stem cell research.
The race of civilizations towards glory – America has elected leaders consistently throughout my life who could care less about all that. Just keep everything how it is. You know, because there’s never been a nation out there whose celebrated being the best at something…it’s like we develop amnesia about that part of our nature, focus too much energy on having the biggest dick and lowest taxes…as if history gives a damn about such things.
‘A DON never wears shorts!!!!’
At least Bush is not a flip-flopper (shazzam flazzam on the flip flop!!!!).
Did anyone see Michael J. Fox speaking out on this topic on the BBC?
Sadly, most of the eggs benedict are discarded like poor, poor Lebanese.
From patriotboy.blogspot.com
Sen. Sam Brownback
United States Senate
Dear Sen. Brownback,
I really enjoyed your presentation on the rights of blastocyst-Americans. I was particularly impressed by the drawing the little girl made showing the unhappy frozen blastocysts who failed to be adopted into good Christian homes–they were extremely cute little clumps of protoplasm despite the frowns they had on their crudely drawn faces.
It got me to thinking that the reason we have such a hard time convincing people to defend these tiny citizens might be because actual blastocysts-Americans are pretty gosh darned ugly. It’s just very hard to like a glob of goo. By gussying them up in her drawing, the little girl made them endearing. That’s why your presentation was so successful.
I’d like to do the same thing for spermatazoan-Americans. They too suffer the curse of not being very photogenic. I think that might be the reason so few men protect them as I do by storing them in mason jars down in the cellar.
Being a heterosexual man, I don’t know a lot about making things pretty, so I asked my wife, Ofjoshua, for a little help. You can see the results of her efforts in the enclosed photo–my, that’s a fine looking bottle of spermatazoan-Americans, isn’t it.
I’d like to send it to you, so that you could use it in a presentation on the plight of these squirmy little citizens. Perhaps you could use it to pass a bill requiring men to do more to save them.
To which office should I send it, DC or Topeka?
Heterosexually yours,
Gen. JC Christian, patriot
Brownback and Inhofe are out of their minds…Bush didn’t flip flop, sure, but he also didn’t read up on the subject either!
Am I the only voive of reason and logic here? This proxy battle for abortion has nothing to do with science for Democrats or helping people or anything like that. Embryonic stem cell use is a theory/fantasy. Adult stem cell research is already reversing a lot of diseases in animal testing.
Why in the hell would we take something that actually works and dump it for an unproven theory? Why do you think the embryonic stem cell people have to go to the government for money with all the biotech financial clout here in the U.S.? Because anyone with any common sense knows you put your money on what works.
Investors aren’t going to donate billions of dollars on a lsot cause to prop up somne misguided libgeral dogma that says for wowen to feel good about themselves they have have to be able to kill their babies. It’s nuts. Adult Stem Cells work NOW, why wait 50 years until someone figures out how to make embryonic stem cells turn into adult stem cells so they can be used in treatment.
You joked that I drank too much of the kool-aid. Damn, you guys take 1st place. Does anyone here acknowledge the fact that adult stem cell research is decades beyond anything else? The best thing for us would be for embryonic stem cell research to die on the vine and focus our energy on what really works. Don’t worry, there will be other things to kill.
100% mistaken. Nobody’s dumping adult stem cell research, never been suggested by anyone. In 1920 the idea of man walking on the moon would have seemed like a scifi story.
Right, you’d rather they throw them out than try to utilize them for the cause of medicine?
Right:
I think you are on to something with the lack of private funds, a lot of smart people are not willing to bet their own money on this kind of research which does make one wonder about how effective it can be. Almost all the research that I have seen in animals seems to work around the “rejection” component by using stem cells from siblings, this would be impracticle in humans, unless people want to abort a kid for spare parts(just kidding on that last part).
With that said it is wasteful to just dispose of a bunch of blastocysts that have already been created and thus never know what potential their may be. I get the impression that you see it as wasteful to dispose of the these blastocysts in any way, other than implanting them in a women, which I don’t think in practicle. so it turns into a question of do you throw away the blastocysts and benefit no one, or do you use them to maybe make the world better.
I’m curious to know what you’re reading and what radio/tv your listening to RT? They’ve done a masterful job of brainwashing you. BTW, the earth isn’t flat.
How well do you think our farmers would be doing without government assistance? How well would our domestic energy producers do without government assistance? How well would the airline industry do without periodic government bailouts? How many of our fancy gadgets were developed in a laboratory funded with government grants? If the government isn’t down with something, then the potential sources of revenue are already severely limited. High risk investment. Thankfully some smart state leaders have taken the reigns.
Stem cell research and abortion are two entirely different things. The religious right would like to lump them together to get middle-of-the-road anti-choice folks a bit more to the right.
I’m not for abortion, but I am for a woman’s right to make her own decisions regarding her body. Their right to choose trumps my right to get pissed about what they are or are not doing.
An interesting aside regarding abortion. You guys should read the book “Freakonomics”. Very interesting. The author points out that abortion rights in the early 70’s lead to a reduction in national crime rates in the mid to late 90’s. More abortions for low income women = fewer crimes committed by low-income teens and young adults 20 years later. He applies statistical modeling to a variety of questions (why teachers have incentives to cheat for their kids in high stakes exit exams, why Sumo wrestlers collude to fix matches, and on and on). Don’t be afraid though, he doesn’t make you do equations or anything. Pretty interesting stuff, and easy to read. And for you parents the last chapter is especially interesting as he looks at naming of children and the effect that class has on how children are named (excerpt: want to know what the most popular names will be in 2015? Look at what wealthy folk are naming their kids today in 2006). He also says that parents don’t have nearly as much influence on their kids chances for success as they think they do. Anyway, I digress. But read the book.
Run Bill Moyers For President, Seriously – Molly Ivins
Well put.
Indeed! Scary that millions of Christians also fail to grasp this concept. This is a downfall of the insulation and safety America provides us.
Hmmm 40,000 in Iraq, 40+ million since abortion became available, who is missing the point? Looks like Molly likes to ignore facts. Oh well.
And who precisely is going to take care of these 40+ million unwanted children? Should we commission a new federal agency to feed, house, and care for these unwanted masses?
Or should we just send them your way? You’ve got an extra bedroom, right?
They were aborted because they were unwanted. You can’t legislate a woman’s desire to not have children. A child that is unwanted is very likely to be neglected, abused, and possibly killed.
Here’s a question RT. Would you rather have an early stage embryo sucked out of a womb, or a 2 year old child beaten to death by a drunken father? What’s your preference RT? It’s a simple yes or no type question.
Molly Ivins isn’t ignoring facts, she’s taking a look at the real world and making some tough distinctions. Something that most conservatives these days are unable to do.
Abortion has nothing to do with Iraq nor stem cells. Stem cells have something to do with Iraq because of their proximity in the history of our republic.
If stem cell research has something to do with abortion, than so does smoking with kids in the car or in the house, or the government gutting the Clean Air Act to relieve energy companies from having to install devices to lessen air polution…which is proven to spread for miles and cause higher rates of asthma in children.
Drawing comparisons to issues is fine, but let’s get real here. Is clean air less important than abortion? As if to say, we bring all these children into the world, yet work against providing them a safe world to live their lives?
Show me a conservative whose blasting out the rhetoric against stem cells and abortion, and see whether or not they happen to say a word about clean air, education or nutrition.
Mike Huckabee-R-Arkansas(?), he does…but who else? Surely not Boehner or Hassert or Cheney or Bush…
Once you are out of the womb you are on your own.