In the Texas thread an interesting discussion broke out over the correct punnishment for a DUI. Personally, I think hard time should be handed out for crimes where there’s a victim, but when the victim is oneself, society is basically wasting time and money by throwing years at the problem. It’s a fact that prison teaches people how to be better criminals, and like a child receiving a spanking, if the punnishment doesn’t fit the crime, remorse isn’t the result…instead it’s anger.
How about these crimes, generic, but ballpark what you think is an appropriate sentence:
- Possession, 1 ounce of pot
- Possession, 1 ounce of methamphetamine
- DUI, 1st offense
- DUI, 4th offense
- Vehicular Manslaughter (driver was impaired)
- Vehicular Manslaughter (driver was on their cell phone)
I think hard time should be handed out for crimes where there’s a victim, but when the victim is oneself, society is basically wasting time and money by throwing years at the problem.
So basically what you are saying is go out and drive drunk but don’t come back until you have seriously maimed or killed someone. I was with you up until this point, we shouldn’t keep giving offenders mulligans until they do serious harm. First offense (the real first offense) is 1 year, right off the bat, then add 2 years for each additional offense. This assumes no one was hurt.
If someone was hurt then the victims should have a say but i’d at least double the minimums.
The possession charges, throw them out. Let free market forces handle our drug problems. Those with serious addiction issues will OD when they have unlimited access to cheap drugs. Good riddance to those folks, enjoy the trip.
DUI 1st offense: Your car is taken and auctioned off, 30 days in slammer.
DUI 2nd offense: Same as first and 6 months in the slammer
DUI 3rd offense: Same as 2nd and a DUI tatoo is placed on your face. Liquor vendors would not be allowed to sell or serve liquor to you.
DUI 4th offense: Death (besides, with a DUI tatoo on your face, you may wish you were dead)
Vehicular manslaughter: I’m assuming that by impaired you mean drunk. Death.
Vehicular manslaughter cellphone: Car auctioned, and 1 year in jail.
Punishment should be a deterrent, not a slap on the wrist. I think it’s more of a signal to those who might not otherwise give it much thought. DUI tatoos and death would make you think. And if you weren’t capable of thinking about it, then you’re a hazard to others and need to be dealt with.
Possession, 1 ounce of pot (wow, party at Chris’) 1 month
Possession, 1 ounce of methamphetamine 10 years
DUI, 1st offense 1 year
DUI, 4th offense 9 years
Vehicular Manslaughter (driver was impaired) 10 years
Vehicular Manslaughter (driver was on their cell phone) 10 years
Hey, manslaughter is manslaughter no matter the cuase. Cellphone, drunk, neglect, negligence, it all ends in death to an innocent.
I’m kinda glad the Captain doesn’t limit his death sentances to the unwanted children of the world because it maintains a uniformity. But damn, man, you talk like Republicans are portrayed by liberals. You make me feel less conservative with my 10 manslaughter sentances.
Right:
I’m not weighted down by a pre-conceived notion that human life has some special value. We are all just meat and instincts. However I do believe that innocent lives are MORE valuable than screw-ups. Drunk drivers endanger innocent lives (like my 2 year old daughter), so get rid of them. It’s a fairly easy calculus for me: drunk driver worth nothing, my daughter worth everything.
The only lives I value are those of my family and friends (and my fellow bloggers of course.) Everyone else must fend for themselves.
It’s a fairly easy calculus for me: drunk driver worth nothing, my daughter worth everything.
Hmmm, I have an eight week old daughter so I’m gonna have to juump on the back of your wagon (no innuendo intended!!!) on this issue.
Oh yeah. That was you eh? I thought that picture was of Chris.
Eight weeks old… she keeping you up at nights? First kid?
If you drop her on her head… don’t worry my wife did it too. By the time the ambulance got there the kid was settled down. The medics got a kick out of the call… “first time parents eh?”
Ah yes, Max fell on his face one day and I had him into the emergency room…he was fine, but that first time it happens you figure it’s all over. Hardwood floors are pretty cool because they learn how to brace themselves, learn ‘how to fall’…reminds me of basic training.
Back to the crime and punnishment thing though:
Right, I’m not classifying DUI as a victimless crime, because the car turns into a weapon at that point. Ultimately, what actually happens is paramount, but DUI in and of itself is absolutely a serious offense. Now, captain’s idea of auctioning off the car…this would make the punnishment different based on level of wealth. I think it’s better to max out the insurance policy points (in turn, bringing down the rates of everyone else “in theory”), suspend the driver’s lisence and require community service.
By the 4th offense, the individual hasn’t gotten it…now, by that time, they should have been required to attend counseling, should have lost their lisence for a year (the third offense)…it’s time for jail by the 4th.
Now, if the law incorporated degrees of intoxication, it would make a lot more sense. Because the guy who forgot to use his blinker on a turn and blew (whatever the equivalent of 2 beers is) shouldn’t get punnished like the gin factory occupying two lanes.
Manslaughter is rare, and that’s why I thought it would be interesting to see what you guys thought about the booze/drugs-cell phone difference. This is a crime that a top notch lawyer can determine what happens more often than the actual facts of the case. 10 years may be too light though.
As for possession – – – pot isn’t killing anyone, legalize it. Meth on the other hand is a combination of items never meant for consumption and responsible for too high of a percentage of new editions to prisons throughout the midwest and…well, the west in general…Montana, South Dakota, I’ve read articles about these two states and their meth problem, but it’s all over the place.
The social cost of dealing with meth is obvious, so for the users, intensive treatment programs and for cooks/dealers, time.
In some states the ounce of pot will get you hooked up rather severely…and on the floor of the House two weeks ago I watched a Rep from Florida (R-but there are plenty on both sides of the aisle who are clueless on this) argue that hydroponic dope was as addictive and powerfull as crack cocaine.
I don’t know…when an elected official actually gets up in front of the nation and says something like this, it makes me cringe. But this is the type of thing that gets irresponsible sentences…a politician’s urge to appear ‘tough on crime’.
We’re not smart at all in America when it comes to this, crime and punnishment.
The victim in a crime is my first thought always, and I honestly believe it should be the starting point in all criminal cases. On the DUI, just like the guy who cooks up a batch of meth, the victim is society as a whole. That idea though is what people go overboard with…like the charade in Texas.
Funny…Brian gets busted for a DUI in the episode of Family Guy on right now.
OK, how about this one. It happened in Anchorage, Alaska. I think the case is before a court right now, but the actual incident happened back in 2003 (I think).
A woman is driving in a large SUV, her and her son. Neither are buckled.
A man is driving a truck in front of her. He has a history of traffic violations ranging from leaving the scene of an accident, to driving without a license. He has multiple speeding tickets, and all parties involved agree this guy is a road menace.
Back to the story… she is tailgating him on a two-lane road waiting for the dashed yellow line so she can pass. From the sounds of it, both are agressive drivers. As she speeds up to pass, he speeds up to prevent her from passing. There is difference of stories from eye witnesses as to whether or not the guy swerved to keep her from passing. Anyway, the end result came when he brake-checked her. She was too close, and swerved, losing control and crashing. The man keeps on driving.
She died. Her son lived.
What punishment should the guy receive?
The guy is a true asshole, and should get a murder sentence. He used the vehicle to inflict harm. Like Russian Roulette.
What about the guy driving with the setting sun in his eyes that runs over a bum? What kind of sentence should he get?
I could really care less about pot. Gateway drug yada yada. Pot smokers are known for being docile. Those that aren’t are just basic psychopaths. Don’t get involved in the False Cause analogy.
Meth turns people into awful zombies. That is the drug we should focus to eradicate.
If drugs were legal meth would probably not be popular as their would probably be low cost alternatives that don’t make your teeth fall out.
Interesting. Plus, a lot more dead people.
A court order to purchase some sun glasses, and mandatory driver training.
Wiesenhiemer:
I wonder if legalizing drugs would lead to more deaths. At least if they were legal the quality could be controlled and they could come with approved instructions. Seems like it might improve a bad situation.
Oh yeah. That was you eh? I thought that picture was of Chris.
Chris and I are easy to tell apart, I shave ;- )
What punishment should the guy receive?
20 to life. The roadway isn’t a deathmatch arena.
I wonder if legalizing drugs would lead to more deaths. At least if they were legal the quality could be controlled and they could come with approved instructions. Seems like it might improve a bad situation.
Yeah, just like what happened with asbestos, Fn-Phen, Red M&Ms and Ambien.
Right:
Once again apples and oranges. the cases you mention no one knew the products were dangerous, or in the case of asbestos people knew and covered it up. In the case of narcotics people know they can be dangerous and at least if used in proper dosages they are safer than meth, and their is a lot of research as to the negative effects.
I am suggesting we let the free market work. If people are willing to take the risk let them.
I am suggesting we let the free market work. If people are willing to take the risk let them.
The only problem is chemical addiction removes some of the ability for people to make rational decisions. Do you think the crack addict smokes crack until their body disintegrates because they choose to? Hell no, the chemicals trigger obsession/compulsion in their brains that urges them to do what ever it takes to get another hit.
Since your such a free-market proponent, would you allow the free-market to use these , in your world, legal drugs in products like childrens cereals in order to sell more cereal? The one factor you overlook is the loss of free will to addiction.
captain – the driver had hit and ran in the past, and he fled from the scene of another accident! This fact should be admissible in court, and vehicular manslaughter is the charge. She’s dead and he helped her get there. If his lawyer gets him off, at least it’s a story in the news that people can look at and take to heart. When aggressive behavior behind the wheel is the norm, death has a greater chance of occuring.
Sometimes prosecuting a case that’s in the defense’s favor serves a purpose, and this is surely one of them. In Massachusetts, there seems to be a case of vehicular manslaughter where the driver gets off at least twice a year, mostly it’s a ‘who the driver knew’ situation.
An accident is an accident, but a known road hog not learning their lesson is another thing altogether.
Right:
Are you suggesting we ban coffee because caffein is addictive. Mcdonalds is not terribly healthy and some people might argue that it is addictive, should Mcdonalds be banned. Part of freedom is the freedom to do stupid things.
Heh, after 4 years in the army, I’ve had enough shaving for a lifetime!
Details of the story
karl says:
Right:
Are you suggesting we ban coffee because caffein is addictive. Mcdonalds is not terribly healthy and some people might argue that it is addictive, should Mcdonalds be banned. Part of freedom is the freedom to do stupid things.
Karl, Caffeine withdrawl gives you a headache, crack withdrawl turns you into a maniac. Heroin withdrawl is described as someof the most searing pain a human can experience and still live.
Sure you can “argue” McDonalds is addictive, but let’s focus on the substances that are proven to be addictive. Should McDonalds be able to put crack in Big Macs to get people to by more Big Macs?
I tend to be in agreement that marijuana should be legal, especially to medical patients but it should be distributed as is. If cigarettes didn’t contain nicotine then I would have been completely against the Tobacco lawsuits but Big Tobacco decided it was in the nicotine delivery business and not the tobacco business.
cptmenace: Oh yeah. That was you eh? I thought that picture was of Chris.
RT: Chris and I are easy to tell apart, I shave ;- )
Heh, after 4 years in the army, I’ve had enough shaving for a lifetime!
HA!! I though you would get a kick out of that : -)
A crack addict going through detox involves a lot of sleeping. A crack addict is actually more of a “maniac” when they’re juiced up.
An oxycotin (a legally prescribed drug) addict going through detox is the exact opposite, they will pace for days with very little to no sleep.
I know more about this crap than I care to. I spent this past Christmas day driving a family member to a detox center for oxy. Very very ugly. Still is.
My experience tells me to just legalize it all, and let the chips fall where they may. There isn’t enough treatment, prevention, or law enforcement money on the planet to keep people from killing themselves with drugs, if that is what they want. Sad sad. But adults should be responsible for their actions, good or bad.
Although, RT raised a point I hadn’t really considered. Commercial enterprises putting these newly legal drugs into foods and other consumables. Hmmm… Requires more thought.
This is probably an urban legend, but I heard that one of the ingredients in Coke a cola is cocaine.
Starbucks seems tp spend a lot of time researching ways to mke coffee more potent, plus the #1 killer in America is heart disease, fast food has to be a factor in that. Should mcdonalds stop marketing to children?
If you want to argue personal responsibility it should be consistant. Alcohol is addictive but if people get hooked whos fault is it? Same with cigarettes, they are legal, everyone knows they are bad for you, if you still smoke them who is at fault when you get cancer?
This is probably an urban legend, but I heard that one of the ingredients in Coke a cola is cocaine.
No, that is true. When it first came out, around the turn of the cetnury before the FDA, the Coca was for the cocaine and the Cola was for the Cola bean. Today, neither Coca nor Cola is used in the beverage.
If you want to argue personal responsibility it should be consistant. Alcohol is addictive but if people get hooked whos fault is it? Same with cigarettes, they are legal, everyone knows they are bad for you, if you still smoke them who is at fault when you get cancer?
That’s why I brought up the point about cigarettes being just a nicotine delivery device. Take out the nicotine and then allow people to make a true decision whether to smoke or not. You can’t make someone chemically dependant and then turn around and say “now make an informed, rational choice.” People get cancer from cigarettes because the nicotine won’t let them quit smoking. Why do you think there is nicotine gum and patches?
Sigmund Freud was a huge fan of cocaine back in the 1880’s. He was encouraging everyone to take it, and many did.
I don’t buy that “I’m a victim of my addiction” line. The brain is an electro-chemical machine. Using your reasoning a child molester could claim a chemical addiction to the feelings he gets when abusing young children. “I was addicted to the endorphins that rush into my brain when I touch the little ones.” At some point free will and responsibility come into play. Are you advocating for a nanny state?
And you can’t “make” someone chemically dependent on nicotine. They make themselves chemically dependent when they habitually smoke cigarettes (even after being exposed to all of the evidence regarding the dangers). Unless of course you keep them tied up in the basement attached to a nicotine-injection machine. In that case you could “make” someone chemically dependent.
Right;
Your knowledge of coke is impressive.
What about gambling. The Casinos know gambling can be adictive and yet they do everything possible to entice people into gambling. Should casinos be banned or should the casinos be sued
We seem to have switched sides as I would argue that the lawsuits against the tobbacco companies were frivolous and seem like they are opening the door to a nanny state, which also would be no fun.
menace, I think it’s one thing to say that everyone is responsible for themselves in this life, but in the case of nicotene, it’s injected into a stress filled world that’s ripe with the kind of people most likely to become friends w/ the drug for life.
Quitting smoking is so hard enough, but when you’ve got a 60 hour week in the office, working for a corporation that makes bad decisions that end up costing jobs every 9 months or so…it’s not healthy for the brain to go through that in some instances. I know that over time the lungs will benefit more, but at that moment (a period of time that can last a day to a year or more) it’s not a matter of ‘when I’m 80’, but ‘will I be out on my ass when I’m 30’?
The amount of drugs consumed in America, both legal and illegal, coincide with the amount of bullshit we’re forced to deal with now. A household with only one working parent is looking at some difficulty funding college for the kids, but when both parents work, how does that kid turn out? The cost of a house now compared with 10 or 20 years ago. How the energy industry is allowed to price gouge w/ natural gas in the wintertime…
It wasn’t this difficult to provide 20 years ago, and that’s why we consumed less drugs per capita back then. It’s not because we all got soft at the same time, or that humans evolved out of the ability to implement self control.
Now, with something like OC, it’s only going to take a small window of availability to get someone spun out to the point where it’s everything. That drug right there is controled and safeguarded like no prescription drug I’ve ever seen, yet it’s on sale for a buck a mg in most of the country. Anyone from the pharmacudical industry can stand up and claim that making it this ‘fun’ wasn’t the intent, but we all know they’re full of shit.
They could have made it so it burned the inside of the nostril when snorted…at a minimum they could have done THAT for America. But no, this is a medical achievement, a once in a generation breakthrough in zombie-junky-pain relief…
Like gun makers who can’t seem to keep track of what shipment went where, or how the flea market ended up with 1200 of last year’s model…
We’re merely seen as millions of pac-men, destined to gobble up something, anything…if we’re not biting, in America today, that just means a suit somewhere isn’t being creative.
I know, doom and gloom…but I’m sleepless and the clock never stops ticking.
Quitting smoking is so hard enough, but when you’ve got a 60 hour week in the office, working for a corporation that makes bad decisions that end up costing jobs every 9 months or so…it’s not healthy for the brain to go through that in some instances.
See what I mean? Costing jobs every 9 months? This never happened and it certainly isn’t responisble for nicotine addiction. Nicotine is super addictive in it’s own right, having a job doesn’t make it worse. That is funny though, completely baseless, but funny.
Like gun makers who can’t seem to keep track of what shipment went where,
More nuttiness, I love it!!!! Are these the guys who cost jobs every 9 months? If so, don’t worry about the guns, they’ll be outof business next year.
The brain is an electro-chemical machine. Using your reasoning a child molester could claim a chemical addiction to the feelings he gets when abusing young children. “I was addicted to the endorphins that rush into my brain when I touch the little ones.” At some point free will and responsibility come into play. Are you advocating for a nanny state?
No nanny state, just the opposite. If cigarette makers should sell a product based on it’s merits. Using nicotine to create addicts, thus creating false demand, is engaging in unfair trade practices. They are cheating. Is it ok to coat the steering wheels of low selling cars with nicotine to sell more of these junkers? Is it fair to put nicotine in foul tasting soft drinks so that people will buy more?
The brain is an electro-chemical machine. Using your reasoning a child molester could claim a chemical addiction to the feelings he gets when abusing young children. “I was addicted to the endorphins that rush into my brain when I touch the little ones.”
I’ll have to look into this more but I remember addiction and obsessive/compulsive are two different things. You get endorfins from all kinds of activities that the brain likes, not just molesting. Endorfins are naturally occuring but narcotics actally change the chemistry of brain in most cases.
We seem to have switched sides as I would argue that the lawsuits against the tobbacco companies were frivolous and seem like they are opening the door to a nanny state, which also would be no fun.
There was no reason to lace the cigarettes with nicotine other than to create demand. The sole reason non-naturally occuring nicotine was used in cigarettes was to get people addicted on the first puff. That’s why I’m for the lawsuits. No nicotine, no case.
I’ve heard it said that the only difference between nicotine and heroin is nicotine is legal.
What about gambling. The Casinos know gambling can be adictive and yet they do everything possible to entice people into gambling. Should casinos be banned or should the casinos be sued
That’s why casinos are so highly regulated and accessability is restricted. You can’t just run down to your local 7-11 and blow your life’s savings on slot machine. There is a huge regulatory entity that restricts everything casinos do. It’s not the same as having zero gambling but there is a demand for gambling and it’s fun when done in moderation.
What I hear you saying is that life is hard and that is why we abuse substances.
So… what about third world nations? Their life is much more difficult (to survive). Are their economies faltering simply because their society is caught in a downward spiral of substance abuse?
And as for makers of drugs. Yeah, they’re in it for money. That doesn’t mean they’re responsible for my actions. I’m the one that takes that first pill (and second, and third…). I know plenty of people that will throw pain pills in the garbage after surgery and just suffer with the pain because they know that the problems of addiction are much worse than the temporary pain they are feeling.
I do agree with the burning nostril bit though. Good idea.
Wrong. Nicotine is a stimulant. That’s why people smoke, and that’s also a reason cigarette manufacturers put it into cigarettes. It’s addictive properties keep them smoking in the long run.
There are much more addictive chemicals that could be placed into cigarettes if addiction was the sole objective.
Sure, as long as they disclose this to buyers. This in fact might actually save many smokers who die from lung cancer and heart disease. Great idea!
So, do you think it’s OK that McDonald’s loads their foods up with very very unhealthy amounts of fat and salt simply in order to keep customers coming back?
Wrong. Nicotine is a stimulant. That’s why people smoke, and that’s also a reason cigarette manufacturers put it into cigarettes. It’s addictive properties keep them smoking in the long run.
You say wrong and then repeat what I said in other words. Nicotine was added to cigarettes in the last 50 years to create demand. Smoking used to be about the flavor of the tobacco, just as it still is with cigars. Nicotine has purpose in cigarettes other than to create addiction and, thus, demand.
So, do you think it’s OK that McDonald’s loads their foods up with very very unhealthy amounts of fat and salt simply in order to keep customers coming back?
Fat and salt don’t create addiction, they are the lowest quality ingredients used to fight a price war. The demand isn’t for the food, it’s for a $0.99 cheeseburger. People could pay $4.00 for a quality burger or $2.00 for crap and a feces laden soft drink.
You need to understand the difference between salt and nicotine.
Sure, as long as they disclose this to buyers. This in fact might actually save many smokers who die from lung cancer and heart disease. Great idea!
They still don’t do this with cigarettes, just the cancer warning. Why would they disclose it elsewhere? It’s chemical stealth marketing.
RT:
Read what Warren Buffet has to say about McDonald’s, and why he thinks it’s a good stock to own. Fat sells (so does salt). Not because it’s cheap, but because human beings crave both fat and salt. And it’s not just humans, a lot of hunters use salt licks to draw in wild game. And which do you think your dog would eat first, a bowl of hard dog food, or a bucket of lard?
Try going on a no salt, no fat diet sometime. You’ll notice your cravings once you go without it.
McDonald’s could produce low cost food from anything if they chose. They produce a lot of their own materials… they own their supply chain in many cases. If they wanted to sell neatly packaged bags of carrots and broccoli for $.99 they could do it and make a profit. They don’t because humans don’t want that. When was the last time you craved a carrot?
Tobacco…
You really don’t know about tobacco and nicotine do you? “The tobacco plant is called Nicotiana tabacum and is named after an early importer named Jean Nicot.” Nicotine occurs naturally in tobacco. Early smokers smoked it for the stimulating effect. You’re crazy to think people smoke it for the great taste. When was the last time you smoked some lawn grass because you liked the taste of burnt dead plant matter?
I completely understand their differences. Do you understand their similarities?
If eating dog poo was as pleasurable as smoking a cigarette, both chemically and habitually, people would do it by the millions too.
Not to put that image into your mind, but you get the idea. I wonder if Menace and RT have ever had a nicotine addiction? Giving it up is like having to throw your blazing hot girlfriend off a bridge because she is the minion of Satan. After you do it, all you can think about is the super daily sex you miss, not the fact that a demon is not living with you anymore. This goes on for about month or two.
I’ve got all sorts of analogies for giving up nicotine: removing your left arm, giving up water. All valid.
I smoked when I was younger, but I was never a serious smoker.
My wife is a smoker, and it bugs the hell out of me. Maybe smoking for her is like having Brad Pitt for a husband. Now you’ve gone and made me insecure.. sniffle, sniffle.
Didn’t Cheech and Chong smoke some of that sh*t in one of their movies?