- Is illegal immigration responsible for higher energy costs?
- Is illegal immigration responsible for the escalating national debt?
- Is illegal immigration responsible for the Iraq War?
- Is illegal immigration responsible for low test scores in schools across the country?
- Is illegal immigration responsible for an increasing amount of household debt?
- Is illegal immigration responsible for global warming?
I don’t think 6 million out of 300 million represent the cause of most of our problems in America. In fact, if you look at cities like Fort Worth, Baltimore, Boston or Spokane, it’s not illegal immigrants commiting the bulk of gun crimes or selling the drugs.
To me, the insane amount of attention paid to this one issue serves as a distraction for people who’d rather not spend any time accounting for the ‘citizens’ creating trouble for the rest of us. Because doing that would force us to acknowledge the effect of poverty on our population. We’ve got the ‘tough on crime’ mantra to fall back on when it comes to that, but how much better off has this ideology made us?
See, in order to actually make a difference in today’s America, one has to discard a number of catch phrases we’ve sadly become addicted to over time. And if Katrina hasn’t woken us up to the reality that poverty isn’t something we can just ignore, then what will? The right-wing radio jocks are all torches and pitchforks over illegal immigrants every day now, yet what sense does it make to spend so much energy on an issue that hardly accounts for the bulk of our society’s woes?
That question is apparantly too ‘high-level’ for most of us, and that’s really sad. Regardless of the fact that every single one of us is the child of someone related to an immigrant, it’s not that hard to rile up the hooples, get people angry at SOMETHING, whether it’s moral, apt or whatever…kids aren’t being abducted or mollested often enough. That’s the problem.
I am gonna have to disagree with you on the gun crime and drugs as shown the other day : Boston Herald Article
Text of the article:
The article surely speaks for itself. As for the 17 illegals, we’ll be seeing trials, or simply deportation? The ‘immigrants’, I’m assuming they’re citizens either 1st generation or 2nd. Are they being put on trial?
Van, we’ve got to see how this shakes out, because if they simply deport every one of them, how much accountablility does that equal?
The breakdown of crimes is vague in terms of how many did what, which may be intentional.
These questions are valid…so whether or not the information is forth-coming or not, that will determine whether or not the roundup was spurned by crime or politics.
We know where the Herald and NYPost are coming from in terms of politics, so let’s see if more information comes out on this.
Illegal immigration is something that cannot be condoned, but in the long list of concerns, it ranks toward the bottom.
That’s my point. Up in Massachusetts we’ve got a few conservative radio people who have held up illegal immigration as the #1 problem in America for years now. One day I called into one of these shows and asked about the cost of policing 6 million illegals and he said, ‘I wouldn’t mind if some extra money was taken out of my check to combat the problem’…I responded, “And how can we pay for that with the Iraq war costing billions every month, along with the tax cuts passed that haven’t been paid for”…he cut my phone and changed the subject.
Van Helsing is a resident of the Commonwealth as well, and as smart as they come. What he does is find documentation, like the article above, which is the right way to go about it. From my personal experience with immigrants from Cape Verde and South America, there are certainly a lot of them who do nothing from day to day, BUT there are also a lot of them who work entry level jobs for many years and scrape by like the rest of us.
I’ve got friends who are 1st and 2nd generation immigrants and they don’t do shit. Now, does that mean they need to be deported? I don’t know, because there are plenty of 100% natural born Americans who don’t do shit either.
I don’t think that an immigrant is any more apt to commit crimes or collect money they don’t deserve from the government than the rest of the population.
As for the illegals who work construction and landscaping, I feel bad for these people. While I can earn a great salary with my experience and only a HS diploma, these people break their backs for next to nothing.
So I don’t feel good demonizing the guy who works 3 times harder than I do for a lot less in return. Because if we got rid of them all tomorrow, the BIG problems we’ve got to face in this country would not go away.
Now, politically, I’m sitting back and watching the chatter of radio conservatives turning into policy on a national level. I know that the laws we’re about to pass will lose Republicans votes in Florida and throughout the Southwest, so if they go down that road, karma is going to make them wish they hadn’t.
I’m all for letting immigrants into the country. In fact I would go so far as to say that our future depends on it. Industry benefits when low cost labor is available as an input of production. If there are people in America that will take a low wage then let them work. Otherwise those dollars will leave the country, and we’ll be importing those goods from our competitors.
As a nation we have become complacent. We need an injection of foreign “can-do” attitude from workers that are happy just to provide any semblance of the “better life” for their families.
The only ones who will benefit from a “war on immigration” are the contractors and government managers who will take a nice slice of the taxpayer pie. Immigrants will get in one way or another, for them it is a life and death issue. For enforcement officers (and managers) it is simply a 9-5 job.
Security of our borders is a completely separate issue in my opinion.
I don’t think it’s a matter of ‘goods’ as much as it’s a higher cost to business and taxpayers to get the services (landscaping, office cleaning, construction, etc.) that illegals are willing to perform.
By a show of hands, you can walk into anywhere in America and ask, “who wants to cut grass for a living?” – – –
I understand. But I think we could be more competitive in manufacturing goods that are normally imported if we had an influx of people that would work for globally competitive wages.
I worked with migrant Mexicans in the early 90’s when I spent a season on a tree-planting crew in the southern U.S. Those Mexicans were easily twice as good at planting trees compared to Americans on the crew. I have no explanation for why. Where an American could plant 2,000 to 2,500 trees per day (the veteran American tree-planters could plant up to 3,500), the Mexican tree-planters could plant 4,000 and more a day. And the Mexican teamwork both on the field and in the camp at the end of the day was amazing. Every two weeks when we got our checks these Mexicans would Western Union their pay down to their mothers and fathers in Mexico.
I have nothing but respect for Mexicans that want to work in the U.S. We all have the same history if you go back far enough.
This is one time that I think Bush is trying to do a good job. He seems to be saying with the guest worker program that we know people are going to come here to work, so lets tax them and encourage them to register. Very pragmatic solution, I doubt his base will let him get away with it.
From washingtonmonthly.com:
If we truly decide that we want to keep immigration limited, then we should face down the low-wage business bloc of the Republican Party and get serious about keeping illegal immigrants out of the country in the first place. But if we want to allow more legal immigrants into the country — as a guest worker program tacitly acknowledges — then we should encourage them to be good citizens by offering them the chance to earn actual citizenship. Because they don’t do that, guest worker programs end up perpetuating both a culture of low-wage labor that’s ripe for exploitation and insular communities that have no incentive to think of themselves as Americans — because they aren’t. It’s the worst of both worlds.
The irony of this one is to good to pass up:
By JENNIFER RADCLIFFE
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle
Reagan High School Principal Robert Pambello was ordered to remove a Mexican flag Wednesday morning that he had hoisted below the U.S. and Texas flags that typically fly in front of his school — a symbol he agreed to fly to show support for his predominantly Hispanic student body.
Yep. You nailed it. Start with the National Association of Restaurants. Here’s their position (which I generally agree with).
I haven’t heard anything about costs of “stopping” illegal immigration as most conservatives are clamoring for. Who is going to pay for it? Should all states be taxed equally on this issue? And what is the guarantee that it won’t fail like most other governmental projects. If it goes anything like Iraq, we’ll spend hundreds of billions, and in the end we’ll have more illegal immigrants than we started with.
How about this idea… why don’t we work with Mexico and try to help make their economy one that makes Mexicans want to stay in Mexico. Without Mexico’s determined effort to help fix this problem, any solution will fail.
Kicking Mexico out of Nafta would help, but Cafta is going to send just as many up here from countries like Colombia. Skilled labor jobs that were in Mexico have now gone to China, and President Fox is about as usefull in all this as Bush is on most things.
You can’t ’round up’ illegals and send them back without paying a price for it down the road.
With the scene in France to look at and take into account, the fact that such an idea is even on the table is alarming. It seems like the right-wing in this country are simply hell bent on learning Europe’s lessons the hard way…whether it’s empire or immigration, they’re basically here to ensure that rioting takes place in the future sometime.
Look at the protests that went off in the west…compare that with the protests in France. The difference is that we actually allow immigrants to build a future for themselves here, get educated and become just as much of the social fabric as any of us. Once you create a mechanism that makes that impossible, you’ll then start to see rioting that involves flame and tear gas.
Seems like a Guest worker program with an achievable mechanism for attaining US citizenship would help the problem. Although, it would probably piss off organized labor and the Tancredo faction.
Another interesting aspect of this, is how long before the US starts producing its own supply of unskilled labor. Look at Kansas, after 12 years of bible based education how many skilled jobs are you really going to be qualified for. The majority of job growth in the US is in health care, if you cannot get through Biology 101 because you refuse to believe in evolution, you are not going to go very far in science. The US may not need to import unskilled labor as we might have more than we need right here.
I’m not too familiar with NAFTA. Guess I need to do some reading.
It’s interesting that France has had it’s protests in two waves. One wave of protests by immigrants because of a sense of discrimination (I guess). And the second wave due to youth and labor issues.
We’ve got both of those issues all wrapped up in one wave of protests. Aren’t we efficient?
😉
If you listen to talk radio (at least Laura Ingraham), they are encouraging American citizens to get out there and counter-protest. Almost like they want to see some violence on the streets. You should have heard Laura this morning speaking on behalf of “black” people. She was saying that they are almost unanimously opposed to allowing illegal immigrants to stay in the country. What’s the percentage of African-Americans in the Republican party? Something like 20% (I’m guessing). Clearly a conservative talk radio host has a good grasp of what African-Americans are feeling. Gotta love that.
Maybe if she didn’t use them strictly as a statistic (I use the word statistic loosely in this case) to support her views, and actually talked about topics that were important to them she might draw some towards conservatism.
Actually, this demand for labor in the health care field will require a lot of “unskilled” workers. We’re talking about diaper duty for grandma, and other types of personal care services. Not always pleasant work, and usually fairly low paying – $9 to $15 / hour. I respect people that do it because that is not a job I would take willingly.
And the behind the scenes aspect of health care is that a large portion is paid for via Medicaid and Medicare. I’m wondering if we (the U.S.) will really be able to sustain our current levels of these programs, let alone the increased level of demand they are predicting for 10 years out.
Low cost labor will enable us to serve many more elderly.
Would you change adult diapers for $12/hour? I guess if that was all there was you would.
Menace:
You just brought a point I never thought of, “who is going to change grandmas diaper?” The worst part about that scenario is do you really want the low-paid(probably resentful) person taking care of you or a loved one.
I follow animal rights cases quite a bit, and what I have noticed is that you see animal abuse where you have people who are doing the job because it is all they can get, like the people who got caught stomping chickens at KFC, I doubt they have a whole lot of job possiblities. If some of the more hands-on jobs in health care continue to to low-paying and have low barriers to entry the potential for abuse seems pretty high.
You’re exactly right Karl.
There have been some real hair-brained government programs created to address this. At least one involved rehabilitating criminals fresh out of prison. Great idea! We’ll give them jobs, provide valuable training and fill a needed role in the community at the same time. Probably looked good on paper. Put someone arrested for burglary in a position of absolute power over an 88 year old immobile woman with little to no government oversight. In the end there really isn’t any good solution. And the problem worsens daily as the baby boomer bulge moves up the age ladder.
Free advice – plan on at least one elderly person living with you over the next 10 to 20 years. Chances are a family member or close friend will need in-home care.
Anyone see Logan’s Run?
A long time ago. Not sure I saw it all. Didn’t they just terminate old folks?
How about Soylent Green? A Charlton Heston classic.
This one is for you Washington:
Immigration 101 for Beginners and Non-Texans – by Molly Ivins
While reading it a thought occurred to me.
Cost of a border wall – ??? billions $$$
Cost of a ladder – $50 (maybe cheaper in Mexico)
I like this part the best:
Right:
Didn’t they kill everyone over thirty in logans run? Why is it I have a feeling we are about to come full circle and start talking about Terri Sciavo?
In an effort to avoid that, did anyone else see Sharon Stone on the daily show? She looked great for a fifty something.
Cost of a border wall – ??? billions $$$
Cost of a ladder – $50 (maybe cheaper in Mexico)
Don’t forget the cost of electricity and sharks with fricken lasers on their heads!!!
Didn’t they kill everyone over thirty in logans run?
It was a Socialist’s wet dream.
Right:
What do you see as the political ramifications of the island?
If you haven’t seen it, essentially they clone people to use them as spare parts.
I’ve seen it and I think the writing is on the wall. Once religion is removed from mainstream society there won’t be the ethical dilemmas about harvesting people as there are today. The only thing that keeps a society from prying on itself, as a culture, is religion.
I’m not sure if wealth will be a factor for who has value as a person or value as part or if it will be genetics. America is in moral crisis right now and once the golden rule and the ten commandments are made illegal, we can begin the process of reviving Ted William’s head.
If Ted williams was revived would he take steroids?
All for the collective, huh? I am going to have to think about this one. Have a good night
The sharks would be enough to keep me in Mexico. El Tiberon NO BUENO!
If Logan’s Run is a socialists’ wet dream, then Soylent Green is a cannibalistic socialists’ wet dream.
“SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!” – fade camera
I think I like the way Napoleon put it…
“Religion is what keeps the poor from killing the rich.”
You CAN buy body parts if you have enough money. You can buy slaves too. That’s what the third world is for, isn’t it?
Disagree. Maybe SOME Americans are having a moral meltdown. I’m doing fine, thanks. Are golden showers illegal yet?
well said Mr Menace
Sharon Stone was good on the show. Right, if two religions created entirely within America (Mormon/Scientology) can thrive, and the numbers of Christians aren’t in decline, where’s the justification for saying it’s in trouble?
The fact that religious leaders can’t get EVERYTHING they want from our government, doesn’t mean religion is being snuffed out in any way.
People were saying the same thing when brothels were the norm in camps, cities…now the hookers aren’t legal, and religious people still haven’t shut up about how “immoral” we’ve become. When I lived in Derry, NH – I remember seeing 3 supposed rapture dates come and go.
Scaring people that it’s the ‘end of days’ and mobilizing them off of the emotion that creates…that’s what believing Christianity is going away is all about, deciding that the Revelations crowd, hungry for power and money, are right on the money.
You have to admire the moral gaurdians:
LIBERTY, Mo. – A youth minister was charged with assault for allegedly knocking a 16-year-old boy down and kicking him in the groin after taking a head shot from the teen in a dodgeball game.
David M. Boudreaux, 27, was charged Wednesday with one count of third-degree assault. According to court documents, the incident happened in February at Crescent Lake Christian Academy.
Authorities said the teen missed Boudreaux with one throw but then knocked the youth minister’s glasses off with the next.
The boy apologized, authorities said, but Boudreaux pushed him backward, and when the teen got up again, Boudreaux kicked him in the groin and left.
The teen suffered whiplash and post-concussion syndrome and had blood in his urine after being kicked, according to court records.
Boudreaux later apologized, prosecutors said.
Jeanne D. Hewitt, administrator of Crescent Lake Christian Academy, said Boudreaux had been placed on administrative leave.
Huh?
Senate GOP to filibuster alien bill
By Charles Hurt
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
April 6, 2006
Senate Republicans will filibuster their own immigration bill today in the face of steadfast refusal by Democrats to allow amendments to the bill that many conservatives view as granting amnesty to illegal aliens.
As an alternative, Majority Leader Bill Frist reached an agreement last night with fellow Republicans on a new comprehensive immigration plan that includes increasing border security and a guest-worker plan, but still does not resolve concerns about amnesty.
I don’t get how the Dems are at fault here. Bush also wants a guest worker program, and my guess is the money people behind the republican party are demanding one. This seems to be a republican mess that they are trying to spin their way out of. In addition even if you did want go with the Tancredo plan of a mass deportation, I doubt the US has the means to get all 11 million undocumented workers out of the country, and right now their is no way to keep these people from coming back in once they are deported.
Once again the conservatives want something that not only is undesirable, but probably not possible.
I saw some of this debate yesterday, heard Durbin, Kyl and a few others speak. I’m not 100% on whether or not Reid is purposely trying to make life difficult, but I do know that House GOP members really steped on their dingalings last week…that one schmuck who suggested we have prisoners pick the fruit.
The House and the Senate are battling here, with the House worried about its own reelection chances and the Senate actually looking at the issue from all sides.
In other words, the Senate is working, the House is campaigning.
You can’t have a white political majority pass legislation that’s historically going to be viewed by non-whites as a step backwards. THIS is the definition of reactionary politics, and the people saying the most ridiculous things are looking out for their own reelection chances.
Being from Nevada, I can assure you everything Reid does is to make life difficult. What seems to be missing in this debate is that the law is being broken and the law breakers are mad that it’s an issue at all. I keep thinking back to the NAMBLA episode on South Park.
We have laws for a reason and it’s bizarre that people want to ignore those laws for their own personal gain, especially when there is an avenue to become a legal citizen. It’s like, I can get to work in 30 minutes but I’m going to do 90 mph in a school zone so I cen get there in 15 minutes. It’s crazy, I tell ya!!!!!
Being from Nevada only means you’re a heathen!
Right, “against the law” is a phrase that’s being phased out in Washington. Apply the “illegal” thought to Bush’s wiretapping, and it’s suddenly not that important.
Anyone here a fan of Reno 911? I think it’s one of the best shows ever made, but nobody watches it. Right, tell me you’ve seen Reno…
Reminds me…how’d you like the ‘hiding our heads in the sand’ aspect of the recent South Park? The episode reminded me of what you’ve been saying about the Muhammad cartoon…the inside joke here, I think, is that South Park used Muhammad in an episode a couple years before this whole thing w/ the cartoon got big.
Pedro is on TV…now that he’s a Met, I only get to see a quarter (at most) of his starts…brings a tear to my eye.
Being from Nevada only means you’re a heathen!
That’s also the state motto.
Right, “against the law” is a phrase that’s being phased out in Washington. Apply the “illegal” thought to Bush’s wiretapping, and it’s suddenly not that important.
For it to be illegal there has to be a law against it. War Powers Act covers most of it. Show me the law that says spying on foreign enemy combatants is illegal.
Anyone here a fan of Reno 911? I think it’s one of the best shows ever made, but nobody watches it. Right, tell me you’ve seen Reno…
I have seen it, a few of ’em anyway. The Burning Man episode was funny, but I doubt anyone outside Nevada got the joke.
Reminds me…how’d you like the ‘hiding our heads in the sand’ aspect of the recent South Park?
Haven’t seen that one.
The episode reminded me of what you’ve been saying about the Muhammad cartoon…the inside joke here, I think, is that South Park used Muhammad in an episode a couple years before this whole thing w/ the cartoon got big.
Yeah, the I don’t believe the cartoon was ever the issue, rather, Islam sees the chance now to seize upon the fear they’ve fought to instill in the world and stoke the fire to keep it alive. Liberals are either very scared of Islam or very stupid. I hope it’s fear.
Pedro is on TV…now that he’s a Met, I only get to see a quarter (at most) of his starts…brings a tear to my eye.
You’ve lost me on this one. I imagine this is a sports reference, which is my weak point.
Burning Man is a world renown (sp?) event, and for many, the pinacle of one’s life…
That much LSD and subsequent happiness can do some strange things to the mind. Reports have confirmed that 65% of burning man veterans who fit into this category, even after finding themselves homeless for 4 straight years, insist that their experience was “all for the best”.
For me…if I’m going to get weird, there’s got to be a band playing in front of me…otherwise, I’ll grab the nearest knife and go hunting for the anti-christ…still dealing with court documents from the last time that happened.
Right, you don’t know Pedro?!?!?!? Martinez is his last name, and he’s getting shelled in his first game of the season.
The FISA law is the one Bush broke. It’s clear that any time an American is to be surveiled, a warrant is needed. For special instances where national security is at stake, normal channels can be circumvented and the request can go straight to a FISA court that’s unlikely to deny any request made. Bush skipped over the FISA court.
Right, with the mountain of judges, lawyers and former REPUBLICAN cabinet members who have stepped up to call this program illegal – – – you’re still not convinced?
The law is the law. unless of course you happen to be a republican. Going back to Oliver North and going forward to Bush and Cheney outing a covert agent, and illegally spying on US citizens, repubs do not seem to respect the law. Notice how their does not seem to be any penalty for hiring undocumented workers, but plenty of penalties for being an undocumented worker.
Laws are for the lillte people
Deregulation is supported by foolish voters for years, and the bank is in suddenly in charge.
Business is spared at either one house of congress or the other, and by the end, by the time it’s on the President’s desk, the idea is so different, it’s less than 2:1 odds on it actually making a difference compared with just extending the rules of the last one they passed.
All this bullshit is about numbers, and that’s what we hear the least about in an average news-going day. “There are no nations, there are no peoples”…only different currencies.
Going down the path we’re on now, that’s becoming truer by the day.
Money talks. Unless people are willing to get money out of politics, by publicly funding elections, I dont see the situation changing.
A ballot measure for public financing here in Massachusetts was voted for, then when candidates gathered enough signatures, the legislature ignored the bill and went on like nothing had changed. It’s an ugly business.
If you took the money out of politics you might get people who want to serve. I know congressman and senators are paid pretty well. Here in Colorado a state legislature makes around 35,000 a year for what is a part-time job. You wont get rich on these kind of salaries, but maybe that should be the point.
Probably being idealistic, but I think that is the right of every liberal
Business interests wouldn’t have people in their pocket the second they walked in the capitol!
The immigration debate is over accept for the finger pointing. Seems foolish to argue that the Democrats derailed the bill in the senate when they are not the majority party.
I guess this is the main repub strategy, set unrealistic goals and then blame someone else when they don’t work. Again I wonder when the Kool-aid drinkers are going to see this.