I’m not concerned with the false sense of hope the miners’ families felt prior to learning that they were all dead, nor am I concerned with any other side issue or expose done up on what any of those miners left behind, what their last words to their wife were the morning of, or for how long their children cried once they knew daddy was never coming home. A coal mining company donated heavily to the Bush-Cheney campaign, saw a subsequent change in the regulatory strength of the government, and ignored safety issues raised by inspectors because they knew the operation wouldn’t be shut down. The company didn’t care about its workers then, and all the teary-eyed news reports in the world aren’t going to change their opinion now. This is business.
Regardless of political affiliation, the families need to tell the media to get out of their faces. They all need to meet and decide what law firm they’re hiring to sue the company. Their intent should not only be to seek compensation, but to fold the company, bankrupt it. Send a message to big business that an American life is worth more than a profit margin. All those folks who were camped outside of Terri Shiavo’s hospice should, but most likely wont, recognize a chance to fire up the ‘Sanctity of Life’ van and head up to West Virginia. This is the essence of their cause right here, the company didn’t side with life.
We have no problem as Americans, summoning up the will to say to terrorists, “You kill Americans, you’ll pay dearly for it.” We’re all mano-a-mano when someone with a turban does the job. Did the mining company conspire to kill its employees? Of course not. Did they care about the odds of a collapse happening? No. And this is the difference that most of us fail to consider, intent and negligence. We say to ourselves about this company in West Virginia, “They didn’t mean to do it. Give ’em a break.” As if the safety of their workers wasn’t any of the company’s business, they paid the fines and pretended nothing was wrong. From a moral standpoint, the company is an anathema to American values and deserves to be treated as such.
Could the appropriate level of government regulation have saved lives here? Perhaps that’s the truth, as Jack Spadaro, former director of the MSHA National Mine Safety Academy, said inspectors told him privately that Labor Department opposition to vigorous safety regulation has hindered their work. “Two weeks before this explosion, I was told by an inspector, ‘Jack, there’s going to be another disaster because we can’t do our jobs,’ ” he said in an interview.
I tend to side with the idea that we are who we are. Republicans didn’t vote themselves into power. That was us, the voters. While it’s easy to politicize this entire tragedy, it’s not like anyone thought tighter regulations would take hold with Republicans in power. This is the nature of their politics, to place corporate interests above all else. Many Republicans are anti-government, and their message wins over a lot of voters for that reason. It’s an idea that sounds great on the campaign trail, but not so great when twelve miners die, because of problems the government wasn’t interested in addressing with anything more than a parking ticket.
Do I blame the Bush administration? Well, do you beat a puppy when it pees on the floor? This is their idea, the one we voted for. Government was too large and intrusive. They only did what they said they’d do if you voted for them. The politicians are merely vessels that sell themselves to you with handshakes and ideas.
With this in mind, keep an eye on the talking heads in the months to come. One of these families will speak out and the “swift boating” will begin. Tort reform will be the issue they piggyback their criticism on, and some of us will be dumb enough to fall for it. Those families suing takes money out of your pocket, and food away from your children.
Mining is dangerous. They volunteered! The company did nothing wrong. The only people making out in this situation are the lawyers. They sweet-talk the families and promise them millions, then go running off with your Social Security check. They hate America.
You want to know what terror feels like? Switch places with one of those miners.
This is so wrong. Chris you are lossing all my respect. Most people would call that mining job opertunity. Most people in the world have no job and less when they return home. These guys were free. Free to be miners or something else. They had all the opertunites we had. Education and a chance to make a name for themselves. The people swarming over our borders think that. Why dont you?
What is it about America you do not like Chris, other than Bush? I am proud of the what these people stood for. Hard work and certain set values and a believe that they made a difference. I think many many people in depressed regiems like Sadam Hussen would gladly have traded places with those miners before the accident and knowing full well the risks. At least they went home evey night free men. Chris you really lost me on this one.
There’s a big difference between:
A. Knowing the risks
B. Inspectors writing up the company for violations that they never fix – resulting in a collapse
I know what kind of people do that work. I’m pissed that it’s the best we can do right now, to ignore safety issues, in a coal mine of all places, and now they’re dead. The families of those coal miners should own that place, and the managers who chose money over safety should be prosecuted for negligence.
All the way up, not a single top dog should ever be able to live this down.
These coal miners didn’t die in a war. They died at WORK. In 2006, it happens because of negligence?!?! The government identified the risks and the company just decided to do nothing about it?
Frodo, with all due respect, this situation is in no way “American” and “romantic”. Those coal miners weren’t doing it for freedom and democracy, they were doing it for a paycheck. They didn’t have to die.
This happens in China, but it shouldn’t happen in America in the year 2006!
A coal mining company donated heavily to the Bush-Cheney campaign, saw a subsequent change in the regulatory strength of the government, and ignored safety issues raised by inspectors because they knew the operation wouldn’t be shut down.
ANY PROOF.EVIDENCE?????
In 2006, it happens because of negligence?!?! The government identified the risks and the company just decided to do nothing about it?
Again, any evidence or proof?
Here is some perspective:
As the world’s largest coal producer and consumer, China produced 1.96 billion tons in 2004, accounting for 35 percent of the world total. It also has the world’s worst safety record, registering 6,009 mining-related deaths in 2004—a fatality rate of nearly three persons per million tons. (Unofficial estimates are even higher.) In contrast, the United States, the world’s second largest coal producer and consumer, produced 1 billion tons in 2004 but registered a death toll of 28, a rate of only 0.03 persons per million tons.
Source is inthis source http://www.bizzyblog.com/?p=1190
Seriously, the Bush is responsible for everything bad and none of the good is getting out of hand. They now call it Bush Derangement Syndrome or BDS and I though tit was a joke at first but it’s turning out to be worse that PEST (Post Election Something Something).
We have the lowest casuality rate in the world by far but that still isn’t enough for Democrats. Every police office who is shot is bush’s fault. every 90 year old who dies of natural causes died because of bush, it’s crazy.
Liberals trick their dupes into believing that Republican are all racist, corrupt, evil and fascist. When the mainstream population elects a majority of Republicans because they have avoided the indoctrination then the dupes go ape shit. The propaganda clearly says Bush is evil, why would Dean and Reid lie, it must be rigged voting machines. Liberals avoid reality as much as Muslims do, everything good that happens proves God is behind islam, everything bad that happens proves that God is behind islam. Crazy.
Thanks Right. I rest my case. Nothing romantic about it. To blame Bush for this disaster is idiodic.
Chris you seem to always link George Bush to every tradgedy and that begs the question. Are you objective or do you have an axe to grind against GWB? If the mining company was negligent and these miners died as a result of it then they should be held accountable and my heart goes out to the families.
TRAGEDY-typo sorry!
In my piece I explained how Bush doesn’t know any better and that the lax regulation enforcement allowed for the company to ignore safety concerns. The agency that inspects mines for safety had their workforce slashed, and their findings no longer carried the authority to shut an operation down.
One does lead to the other. And while mining companies elsewhere chose to fix what was wrong before sending employees into the pits, this company rolled the dice.
They donated money to the campaign, and when you do that, the favor is returned. Paul, industry can do just about anything and as long as they donated to Republicans, they get to operate as if this were China and not the United States of America.
Am I wrong?
Right – I knew this would happen, the rationalization, comparing us with China. Here are the facts:
Mine inspectors issued more than 200 violations for the Sago mine in 2005. We look closer into the violations and ask what the findings mean for West Virginia miners.
Am I wrong?
Yes, allowing companies to self-regulate doesn’t guarantee fraud, corruption or negligence. The difference between China and America is the Companies have the right to choose how to run their business and employees who are injured have to right to seek damages in court.
This is exactly how it is supposed to work. These 200 violations will obviouly be a factor in any court case that results. Bush isn’t a nanny who is an expert in every industry and, thus, should regulate every industry into the ground. Even wiuth these so called lax regulations America is still, by far, the leader in low death rates among coal miners.
Your argument that Bush got paid off to look the other way (it’s not his job to look in any particular way in the first place, thats agencies like OSHA) so that the mine could endanger the lives of miners for profit is extremely paranoid and ignores the principle of free market economics. Remember Asbestos? Ford Pinto? Chrysler Corvair? Vioxx? Fen Fen? It always catches up. If the mine is found liable in court then that is the way it should be according to our system of laws.
So you’re comfortable with the government’s inaction? “Well, we’re not as bad as China, so we can afford a few collapses if it makes an extra buck”
Agents saying the mine was going to collapse and that their hands were tied…that’s indicative of something. Choose to ignore it if you want to, but inspectors knew full well what was wrong, but suddenly had no power to do anything more than write tickets.
As for Asbestos and Vioxx…throw in mercury poisoning, veterans sick due to exposure to depleated uranium, and any number of instances where people get sick from drinking water from the tap because a lax government allowed industry to cut corners.
It all happens because a business wants to skip a few steps…steps that are put into place to save lives…the government that ignores these things is working for industry first, and the people second.
I know that with the philosophy abound since the 80s, that when a buck is handed to industry, we all get a penny…that’s a load of crap.
What happens is this, the industry makes their money, then people sue…so the politicians go out and spread the word about how the lawyers are ruining America…forget about little Lucy’s leukemia…this is about greedy individuals taking advantage of these poor corporations.
I’ve heard it my entire life, and sadly, even when the facts are right there in front of us, the song remains the same.
Why?
Becuase there are 280+ million people in the USA, and only 12 died in that mine.
So you’re comfortable with the government’s inaction? “Well, we’re not as bad as China, so we can afford a few collapses if it makes an extra buck”
On the contrary, I am very comfortable on the governments ACTION to remove unnecessary and disruptive regulations and allow the professionals to do the job. We aren’t even close to China, but not just China, or any other coal producing nation. America is the safest place by far to be a coal miner. It is up to the courts to decide negligence but keep in mind that you can’t legislate natural disasters.
Agents saying the mine was going to collapse and that their hands were tied…that’s indicative of something.
How do you tell what is educated guess and what is alarmist conjecture used to get your way. These agents could have been pressuring the mine knowing that no one could prove either way what will happen in the mine. Just look at Howard Dean for examples of sensationalist conjecture and speculation.
Choose to ignore it if you want to, but inspectors knew full well what was wrong, but suddenly had no power to do anything more than write tickets.
What would have them do? Shut the mine down and put everyone out of work for something that might happen? Hindsight is 20/20.
It all happens because a business wants to skip a few steps…steps that are put into place to save lives…the government that ignores these things is working for industry first, and the people second.
The government is there to promote economic benefits not stifle them. Government is supposed to encourage business, trade, growth and liberty. The courts decide what busniess is responsible for.
Becuase there are 280+ million people in the USA, and only 12 died in that mine.
12 died so that 30 million elderly wouldn’t freeze to death this winter.
Same could be said of the intelligence cuts during the Clinton administration that led to 9/11. So does this mean that Clinton is resonsible for 9/11? On this fact alone? No it does not. And Bush is not to blame for the mine disater, but that is what you wanted to and did imply.
Is this a disater that could have been avioded? Yes absolutely.
That’s bull – coal leads to electricity most often in America. What were you saying about sensationalist conjecture?
Ah, the ‘jury’s still out’ argument…Republican logic at it’s best. No, this man wasn’t an expert, he was a paper pusher…he couldn’t tell you anything about mine safety, see, because mines are as mysterious to humans in 2006 as outer space, or the ‘meaning of life’.
How can you assume that an agency whose sole responsibility is to inspect these mines…that whatever they find and make reccomendations on, it’s only ‘conjecture’. Do we say the same thing to a plumber or electrician or a surgeon when they identify a problem?
Yes, shut it down. Some things are more important than production. The firm bought out the mine, knowing full well what the safety concerns were. The previous owners went bankrupt. So a load of capital went behind it, and they just ignored what was wrong with the mine.
It’s not their inalieable right to profit before it’s my inalieable right to expect that when I put my neck on the line for this firm, that they’ve taken precautions.
There’s no proof as of yet that the company did anything to address any of the problems that the mine was cited for. Yet here you are, giving them the benefit of the doubt becuase the government that did nothing about it, happens to be run by Republicans.
You want government getting out of industry’s way? You want more collapses?
Frodo – Right, I’m laying out a situation where deregulation doesn’t work. The political argument only works with a morally upstanding private sector.
Have we ever had a morally upstanding private sector?
These politicians are bought by industry to give them what they want. Not what’s necessarily right for the country or it’s people, but what’s right for business.
You can’t just get rid of the agency, so instead you keep it in place, only strip the inspectors of all their power.
DI: Becuase there are 280+ million people in the USA, and only 12 died in that mine.
RT: 12 died so that 30 million elderly wouldn’t freeze to death this winter.
That’s bull – coal leads to electricity most often in America. What were you saying about sensationalist conjecture?
Yes and electricity is used to run heaters in the winter and A/C in the summer.
because mines are as mysterious to humans in 2006 as outer space
I don’t know jack about mining, should I be the one to set safety regulations? I’m about as qualified on mining as your government regulators.
How can you assume that an agency whose sole responsibility is to inspect these mines…that whatever they find and make reccomendations on, it’s only ‘conjecture’.
If there is such an agency whose sole purpose is to inspect mines then I see where my tax dollars are being flushed down the can.
Do we say the same thing to a plumber or electrician or a surgeon when they identify a problem?
I remember you being pretty upset about FEMA director Brown not being qualified to run the disaster agency, how is mining any different? Because it’s mining everyone is an expert? But FEMA is special and needs special people to run it?
If FEMA did such a terrible job in NO what makes you think any amount of regulation and federal meddling will do any better in the mining industry? A private, for-profit FEMA probably would have done a better job.
Yes, shut it down.
Then you have to shut down all mining because you never know when a mine will collapse. The very existance of a deep hole in the Earth is a collapse waiting to happen as gravity is constant.
No mine is safe unless you spend a billion dollars to line it with steel reinforced concrete with a hurricane force ventilation system to vent gas and provide oxygen.
After all that you can’t dig without breaching the concrete safety barrier so you end up with a billion dollar wind tunnel that goes no where for no reason.
It’s not their inalieable right to profit before it’s my inalieable right to expect that when I put my neck on the line for this firm, that they’ve taken precautions.
They have taken precautions, the mine collapsed anyway. It’s considered a very dangerous profession for a reason. This is like trying to guarantee a plane never crashes or a cop never gets shot.
There’s no proof as of yet that the company did anything to address any of the problems that the mine was cited for.
There is no proof that the collapse was caused by the things company was cited for. To analogize, you are using parking tickets to show cause that a the DMV should have taken away the license of a driver who had a heart attack while driving.
Because the driver carelessly parks his car then he he must also be careless with his health and the Republican DMV guy should have been more careful and pulled the guy’s license until he had bypass surgery. All based on parking tickets.
You want government getting out of industry’s way? You want more collapses?
Why doesn’t the Congress just make mine collapses illegal so than when a mine does collapse the police can go arrest gravity and charge it with aiding and abetting a mine collapse.
I kid, but seriously, you can’t legislate natural disasters or the government would legislate that no one could liver near volcanos, fault lines, rivers, lakes, the coast, islands, anywhere there are mosquitoes and so on and so forth.
Yet here you are, giving them the benefit of the doubt becuase the government that did nothing about it, happens to be run by Republicans.
I am painfully aware that there are no psychics in the Republican party to satify the liberal demands of all perfection, all the time. Besides, the word Clinton is the catchall response word when someone uses the “do nothing” claim against the Right. He balanced the budget but 3,000 people died on 9/11 so in dailykos-land that evens out.
You want government getting out of industry’s way?
I can’t stress this enough. YES, absolutely out of the way. The Gov’t shoudl be embracing and advancing alternative energy sources, not making it harder do dig up coal. If we had reliable and renewable energy people wouldn’t have to risk their lives in the mines.
Frodo – Right, I’m laying out a situation where deregulation doesn’t work. The political argument only works with a morally upstanding private sector.
No, it all comes down to cost benefit. Good executives operate in a manner that maximizes revenues while mitigating risk the category, of which, lawsuits and damages fall. A collapsed mine makes no money so this accident is worse to the company than the government.
Morality has nothing to do with it at all. Courts judge companies and the threat od legal action puts the fear into the good executives to stay on the straight and narrow. The bad executives, either dirty or incompetant, make mistakes and misjudgements. You can’t crush an entire industry to keep a small number of people out of work.
Have we ever had a morally upstanding private sector?
No and we never will and isn’t even a goal or something we need or want to have. It’s irrelevant.
These politicians are bought by industry to give them what they want. Not what’s necessarily right for the country or it’s people, but what’s right for business.
Every politican is bought by someone, that is why it’s called a representative government. I gave some money last year to a candidate who was pro-insurance because he wants to fight insurance fraud and fake insurance companies. He was elected party due to my money and prtly due to my vote. Mining companies don’t get off on mines collapsing everywhere.
The previous owners went bankrupt.
Probably because of all the regulations. It’s definitely not because we don’t need coal.
You can’t just get rid of the agency, so instead you keep it in place, only strip the inspectors of all their power.
It serves no purpose and yet our tax dollars continue to be funneled into it, great.
I’m going to respond in full shortly, family duties demand my attention for the upcoming hour or so.
In the short term though, let me mention that I’m a kind of a history buff when it comes to mining. Out near you, that’s where the richest finds were made in the 1800s. The Comstock lode was generally the most ingenious development in mining – up to the northeast portion of Nevada. They were able to dig further down than any of us could imagine. The miners who worked in the depths, they’d have a certain many pounds of ice allocated per day. For fifteen minutes the first rotation would go to work, stifiling heat, like we’ve never felt.
They’d finish their rotation and sit with their ice, and when their time was up, they’d grab up a piece in each hand, which would melt by the time they got back to their work area.
The miners of this generation were treated worse than just about any workforce short of the slaves in American history.
When miners held a strike, the government would (on the behest of the mine owners), come in and declare martial law – while Cornish and Oriental workers were shiped in to take the jobs. Workers rights were nonexistant. In some cases, geology and physics were ignored for the sake of profit, and miners died when these things were ignored.
Diging for color, coal, diamonds…anything, it involves science and elbow grease. If you ignore either, you won’t be sucessful.
The people who work for the government and inspect these mines are well educated in the fields of geology and physics. They can look at a mine shaft and through observation, measurements and samples of the earth taken for examination, determine levels of risk.
Just like a carpenter can walk through my house and identify stress points where the building’s support is unsteady or weak…these professionals do the same thing only with mines.
The field of study is vast. It’s something we’ve been doing for almost 200 years.
The Chinese are where we were in the 1800s. If that’s why they pull up more coal with each passing year, then so be it. We don’t need to cut corners because the demand for coal is rising. If venture capitalists see a gap in coal production, then good for them for investing. Their efforts to make money cannot come above the safety of those who will venture down and secure the payday.
The American miner lives a hard enough life already.
Learn about mining from a miner!
Sigh. Go Pats! Big football weekend. What a game the other night btween USC and Texas. The Pen State Florida game was good as well.
Can you tell I am changing the topic?
Comparing the USA to China is a stretch Chris and you know it! However, I see that you have a decided tendency to take perilous and misguided leaps in your reasoning. Does anyone else see this habit in Chris?
Paul – HA! Right made the comparison with China. My point is this, to say ‘well, we’re better than China’, isn’t saying much
This is an interesting article about the lefts version of reality and how they help create it. Chris its not that I did not vote for Kerry, its he and you live in a different world and one you allhave helped create.
QUOTE: “What I find most telling about posts such as Left Coaster’s (in addition to the affected tone of smug resignation directed at “obvious” errors made by those we can assume understand foreign policy and the mechanics of waging war quite a bit better than anti-war pundits) is that they are almost invariably circular in nature and pinned to “realities” that they have been at great odds to help “create” and propagate.”
REad the whole thing.
http://www.proteinwisdom.com/index.php/weblog/entry/19636/
PATS WIN!!!! Maybe if Cinci wins tomorrow we may at Indy next week!! What a game that would be.
Also check out the first comment (1st twocomments actually … same guy)
Comments
Jeff,
You’re smarter than I am. I’m just stuck with pointing out that the left’s talking points mirror Al Qeada’s because, at least as far as Iraq goes, they have adopted Al Qeada’s goals. They are quite simply, on Al Qeada’s side. I fear their lunacy over the NSA matter indicates they are on Al Qeada’s side here in the US as well. If that’s the postion they choose, fine. I’m not going to be worried when they call foul when I point it out.
Posted by corvan | permalink
on 01/07 at 02:03 PM
I also figure, that if you’re a Republican, (I confess, I’m not) that this is the best time for the left to lurch off into out right terrorist-cheerleading. This sort of thing makes it all the more certain that the 2006 elections aren’t going to turn out how the left, and most in the media, hope. If they really expect Union memebers, part of the Democratic party’s core constituency to re-elect those who make a habit of applauding, agreeing with, and cheering for Al Qeada they have slipped very far off the rails indeed.
Posted by corvan | permalink
on 01/07 at 02:11 PM
The question of whether war is or is not the right answer falls to the rhelm of ‘inconsequential’ for many once the troops are deployed.
Categorizing my points, or the left’s points, with that of Al-Qeada’s points…with no examples…to me it’s an affront to the supposed goal of the writer (healthy debate).
If I were to compare Bush and his people to some tyrant of the past, where does the discussion go from there?
Ideas, as much as some of them anger us at times, in and of themselves, do not liken me or anyone else on the left with radical Islam. Frodo, take a moment and think about how you’d feel if your point of view was characterized as madness.
Al-Qeada and the Democrats…if you listened to Bill O’Reiley, Sean Hannity and some GOP bloggers, they’d have you think that they are one in the same. Simply absurd.
Is it absurd to think you are aiding the enemy by stating , incorectly, that we are losingthe war. The same thing happened in the 70’s. Oh I can hear your argument now, this is not the 70’s. True but that does not mean we can not learn from past mistakes. The media has had an agenda for many years. They are gettingcalled out on it now. The old media is in trouble, not just because they are old, the world of informationis changing. They are becoming dated and thier bias is not helping.
The Democrats and people such as yourself are serving the same purpose. What I can only see as hatred for Bush has clouded your sanity and decision making. Call me absurd if you want and I will tell what I think as well. You are, andyour kind are aiding and abeting the enemy with the propaganda you all invent. The truth is out there if you care to look. The 2 links above are frompeople directly connected to the war. They both are calling you and the media and the opertunist Senators for what they are traders.
Look at the reporting coming from Iraq from people not afraid to go beyond the green wall, from people who are actually there. Teh reports are different from the MSM reports. We are winning and I perdict that 10 years from now history will look back at Bush nad his decision to go to war in Iraq and look favorably. We will see and it will be no thinks to efforts of you and the MSM and the Murtha crowd.
Call me what ever you like and I will tell you my opinion of what I think you are … a trader. Tellme you would not love to see the news bad abou the war and anything else Bush does? I do not think you can.
The examples you crave are there but I now think you are incapable of seeing them. In the articles above and others I have linked before the bias has been shown. The left looks very bad here if you have eyes to see. Recent studies by indepedant research, the latest one just a couple ofweeks ago, clearly show what is obvious to those with an open mind. Do not make me look them up. You will not like what you see.
The illusion of how bad things are in Iraq is just that and you and the Democrats and the media are pissed because we have access to the truth and it shows you for whart ypou are … traders.
Quoted from one of deadissues posts
Annual Causes of Death in the United States
Tobacco 435,000
Poor Diet and Physical Inactivity 365,000
Alcohol 85,000
Microbial Agents 75,000
Toxic Agents 55,000
Motor Vehicle Crashes 26,347
Adverse Reactions to Prescription Drugs 32,000
Suicide 30,622
Incidents Involving Firearms 29,000
Homicide 20,308
Sexual Behaviors 20,000
All Illicit Drug Use, Direct and Indirect 17,000
Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs Such As Aspirin 7,600
TERRORISM 310
Add to that this data…
http://www.msha.gov/MSHAINFO/FactSheets/MSHAFCT2.HTM
1991-1999 Mining Fatalities 93
93 divided by 8 = 11.6
11.6 deaths annually during clinton’s administration…thats appauling.
I’ve stopped corresponding with deadissue since he became a political hack, as biased as moore and his ilk. He used to be reasonable, back on google groups. Anyways, just dropped in, you can reply if you want, but i probably won’t check this site for another 6 months or so…
I didn’t mean to insult you Frodo – In case you perceived that I had. I’ve read everything you’ve ever linked to. A blogger provides opinion. News can be diseminated into the brain even with the biases attached. Much easier when one swears off cable news in my opinion. All news on TV for that matter.
With a computer, each and every one of us has the ability to double, triple, quadrupile source in some cases – things we consider “factual accounts of something that happened in the world”.
You’re upset, as other people I know have been for a long time, about “what” the media reports on. While I agree with you concerning what content is chosen and what isn’t – the fact is, when a bomb goes off in a city, news reports scatter and then we can go to Google News and see a list of articles from all over the world.
I’m going to remember to link to a number of news articles when I’m posting on a topic in the future.
Because what you’re alledging is a rigged game in the business of taking pictures and interviewing witnesses who saw what happened somewhere – – – – The soldiers are killed, the story hits the news, and the fact that it does has everything to do with realism. Americans died today, here’s what happened. That IS news. Whether we like it or not. If that wasn’t news, the government would have to censor, which is a step back on the evolutionary freedom chart.
If not that, then what are you advocating by claiming the media is in league with the enemy? On the same wavelength. How do you remedy something like that if it were true? Plant fake news stories in the media? They’re doing that, but reporters are still writing stories about people when they die in clusters somewhere in Iraq.
You have to remove those stories from the news cycle. That’s how you fix this problem. I don’t see how the truth about something that happened in Iraq on a given day could be a problem. I don’t think we can or should follow a course where the messenger is blamed for the world’s problems.
It’s not a lack of heart, conviction, toughness or any other type of emotion we foolishly allow ourselves to enjoy when discussing a topic as fatal as war is. Strength, conviction…all those words used to describe a strategy in war don’t mean anything to me. I can pick up a volume of history from WW2 and Vietnam, and the goals from one to the next in terms of battle plan and objective start becoming less technical and more wordy. Not words to describe actual things, but rather, emotions. Abstract language and diversion (blaming the media instead of the leader, christmas is under attack, etc) now dominate this line of thinking that no matter what war that ever takes place in the future, if you’re not behind the idea, you’re part of the problem or in fact “the problem” in the minds of many who back the idea of going to war 100%.
When am I clicking on one of those links and reading statistics of any kind that justify the commentary? Better yet, how does a fellow voter’s opinion become allowed to exist in the same category at all as the enemy? I’m not setting off bombs in Iraq. My words haven’t killed a single person, while the enemy’s killed how many tens of thousands?
Public opinion is what it is, and despite what you’re alledging here, public opinion on the Iraq invasion was decidedly in favor of going to war. I contend that the historical events and statistics concerning fatalities, utilities, social services, domestic security force establishment, equipment and staffing of our own military forces and the escalation in violence in spite of our presence are what’s fueling the drop in public opinion.
The public at large isn’t less intelligent than the portion of it that favors the war. We all live in the same environment, and respond to it personally.
Facts and statistics are not propaganda, neither are they ‘invented’. If you’re against that happening, then what was your take on the amount of media attention the Clinton scandals gobbled up? For all that was alledged, not much panned out that wasn’t really any of our business to begin with.
Were you alright with that, yet still not alright with news reports coming out of Iraq? I see that as a double standard…not to mention the fact that one involves the death of human beings, and the other marital infidelity.
You want the news to be wall to wall sunny side up whether it’s actually true or not? Is that what you’re saying it needs to be like?
Killing the messenger is what it is. If a batter is having a bad year, a writer can bring up the fact that they’re only hitting .235 in the past month to make that point. That’s all reporting is. At least the reporting I go with regularly. Interviews, statistics, historical facts…put together in a story.
Chris seems to like to paint most things about the American government in dark terms (Left/Liberal) and he will (I think) never change. When was the last time you were thankfull for living in this great land Chris instead of complaining about it? I would assuredly take my country over China or any other country – hands down ! No comparison!
Chris,
You did not insult me. I am just mad that people, including yourself, are duped by the biased media and the opertunistic Democrats. Or maybe you do honestly feel the way you toward Bush and the war on terror. I am willing to give you the benifit of the doubt. What makes me mad is that the media and Democrats spin the truth to help them gain and advantage. That advantage they are trying to turn into results at election time to gain power. I am not suggesting that the power struggle is something new or a non-Rebuplican trait. But what gets my dander up is that the media has picked sides and uses it supposedly “Objective Reporting” to back thier personal politcal views.
The fact that we cover the deaths in Iraq is not the problem. We should and do know such things. The fact that what they choose to cover is all hand picked and selected to paint a picture of what things are like in Iraq. And only the news stories, or twisted stories are selected to paint this image. The Democrats have had the media in thier back pocket for years and use it to gain politcal advantage.
The Bias has been well documented by various studies. The most recent at UCLA is here:
http://www.newsroom.ucla.edu/page.asp?RelNum=6664
http://www.polisci.ucla.edu/faculty/groseclose/Media.Bias.8.htm
Pew Reshearch findins here:
http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=214
More here from Media Research (warning this could be a front from Bush’s brain Karl Rove):
http://www.mediaresearch.org/biasbasics/biasbasics.asp
This is nothing new as this from a CBS network insider revealed several years ago:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0895261901/102-2046878-7463346?v=glance&n=283155
My point being that reporting, real reporting from the actual Iraq front does not share this negitive image that has been beat into the American consiousness byt the Deafetest Democrats and the media. Iraq is broken into about 18 different secions, for lack of a better word, and 14 of them are safe secure and better off than before the invasion and Sadam’s rule. Reconstruction and charity groups have come a long way to rebuilding Iraq infrustructure, schools and hospitals restoring necessary public services, water sewer and police to preserve order. You hear nothing about these.You hear nothing about the soldier sponsored programs of charity for the children of Iraq. You hear nothing about USAID and the fine they have done. Why??? Because it is not convient to the image we are trying to project and not helpful to our political allies the Democrats.
IF you want the real news from Iraq talk to the soldiers who have been there and seen with there own eyes what things are really like. Like the soldier and retired General in the above videos they paint a different picture. There is some great reporting coming from Iraq and it is not coming from CNN, ABC, CBS, MSNBC or FOX. They hide behind thier desks and spew out the stories they want to project the image they want to help thier personal preferences for politcal gain. And we are suppose to swallow this as objectionable reporting. Dont even suggest I should link any of the countless reasons or already discussed arguments as to why this is wrong. I do not have the time to link the many many argurments at how the media has failed us.
You by helping this image give hope to the enemy. They are already proclaiming victory by the planned US pullout they are talking about later this year. Recent tape claims just that. This will embolden a new batch of terrorists who will continue the fight just when things seem to be calming down again the hot regions. Thanks for nothing.
I did not proof read this because I am oushed for time. I hope it is conherent.
I forgot to link some of the fine reporting that is taking place in Iraq.
Michal Yon:
http://michaelyon.blogspot.com/
Bill Roggio (Fourth Rail) who had his own brush with Media bias recently the Washington Post butchered a report about him. If you are not familiar with the story Google it and you will know what I am talking about or look at his site. He talks about it a little.
http://billroggio.com/
Blackfive millitary blog:
http://www.blackfive.net/main/
The Military Outpost:
http://www.lt-smash.us/
Another good one here:
http://desert-smink.blogspot.com/
Faces from the Front:
http://www.facesfromthefront.com/content/view/4/4/
I am currently reading this book and it is excellent. I would believe this guy before I would believe anything the NYT or you try to tell me. Chief Wiggles and Operation Give are worth knowing about. Please contribute if you can:
http://www.savingbabylon.com/
The excellent series on Good News from Iraq that most Democrats and lefties would rather you not know about:
http://chrenkoff.blogspot.com/2005/09/all-good-news-all-in-one-spot.html
What some are saying about the series:
What they’re saying about Chrenkoff
“You’ve got to wonder why the Bush Administration is doing such a bad job at getting its message out that it has to rely on [Chrenkoff] to pick up its slack” – Instapundit
“Essential summary. Why, one wonders, couldn’t a mainstream newspaper produce something like this” – Andrew Sullivan
“Indispensible Arthur Chrenkoff” – Powerline Blog
“If you haven’t already done so, put Chrenkoff on your daily reading list” – Michelle Malkin
“I salute Arthur – one of the great success stories of the blogosphere” – Roger Simon
“Most excellent Aussie blog” – Blackfive
“Increasingly essential” – Silent Running
The new site is here:
http://goodnewsfromthefront.com/
In conclusion whoose side are we on here? The media and Democrats seem interested only in painting a dark picture by choosing selectivly what they cover and how they do it all for a chance to gain politcal power in the upcoming elections.
Update:
More good stuff here. Captain Ed does an excellent job in finding information.
Quote:
” The article finishes with this summation:
The architect of 9/11 and the creator of Palestinian terrorism are gone. The guiding lights of our terrorist enemies are sitting on cracking thrones, challenged by young men and women who look to us for support. Not just words, and, above all, not promises that the war against the terror masters will soon end with a premature abandonment of what was always a miserably limited battlefield. This should be our moment.
Only if we have the will and the courage to grasp it…”
End Quote.
The last line kind of says it all. We are winning this war … if only we have the courage to finish the job.
Read the whole thing here:
http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/006105.php
War on terror, yes. War in Iraq isn’t a logical extention of the war on terror. The war on terror is about criminal investigation and intelligence gathering. The war in Iraq is about nation building.
One is a struggle against people who want to kill free people in free nations, and the other a struggle to stabalize a country we decided to invade.
I believe it was the Shiavo episode that put things on a tilt with us. You’re vehiment in your position that she should have been kept alive, and we went 12 rounds on that one.
Michael, you’re always welcome! With karl not around as much these days, on most issues I’m on my own. Good times…
FRODO – 2 of those got locked up in moderation due to the amount of links contained within. I was busy w/ the twins all day, so I wasn’t able to check it. Sorry about that.
Later on tonight I’m going to review each of those links you’ve posted.
Glad you didn’t feel insulted, I feel better now.
War on terror, yes. War in Iraq isn’t a logical extention of the war on terror. The war on terror is about criminal investigation and intelligence gathering. The war in Iraq is about nation building.
This is just splitting hairs. Who said the war on terror was about criminal investigation and intelligence gathering? I don’t recall anything about criminal investigation during WW2 or Vietnam or Korea. We aren’t sending the hiway patrol to search for bin laden or zarkawi or any of the hundreds of unknown terrorists in the word.
The war on terror has everything to do with Iraq and Afganistan and the nation building you mention. You think when we find bin laden then terrorism will immediately disappear?
The liberal mantra is we are at fault and the more ransom we pay the easier our lives will be. Why do you think Murtha and the Democrats want to surrender to Saddam soo badly? American failure is their only platform for election, if everything is going well then we don’t need Democrats.
The Democratic party is dereft of ideas, morals and goals and their self-loathing is glaring in the NYT and Hollywood. Hell, Belefonte thinks millions of Americans strongly support Hugo Chaves’ new North Korea. With what I’ve been seeing over the past several years, I think he’s right. Millions of liberals are salivating at the Stalinist-era Venezuela and dream of a soviet America.
I haven’t published the piece I’m working on about how the war on terror can’t be viewed in the same way as ground wars of the past. The President and members of Congress agree with this statement, but it’s not translated into rhetoric in the right way in my opinion.
To paraphrase what I’ll release soon…Jose Padilla wasn’t caught by a platoon of soldiers with M-16s. He was caught through the use of a wire.
Wires are used to catch drug dealers, murder for hire cases, mob activity…and terrorists. Part of it, PART of it (a small part in my opinion) is the use of ground troops. The bulk of what needs to be done to combat this enemy happens in a law enforcement capacity.
Harry Belefonte is a douchebag!
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